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#21 Calvary

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:55 PM

In addition, forums exist for discussion and debate! :D

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#22 Diabolical_Jazz

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:42 PM

Oh I know you guys would conduct yourselves with the utmost civility.
I just tend to get pretty heated on certain topics, and this is one of them.

I believe *very* strongly in feminism and its necessity.
I grew up with feminists, I have dated and usually try to date feminists. All of my experiences dictate to me the necessity of feminism in modern society, and all the statistics I've seen agree.

Two of my closest friends are vocal feminists, and they are each more supportive of me as a male than anyone else on the planet.
Feminists are portrayed a certain way in the media, I think more because of sensationalism than anu malicious conspiracy, but it just isn't an accurate portrayal of the way feminism is, and it drives me up a wall (and across the ceiling, and down the opposite wall) when people act like the media portrayal of feminism is how it really is, because this is about my friends and my family.

This, to me, is a deeply personal topic. It's not a vague political one. I know the people we're talking about and I know the effects of an institutionally sexist culture. Not academically. It has done real, life altering damage to people I care deeply about.

...So you can see why I am hesitant to discuss it. <__<
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#23 Calvary

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 03:45 PM

Aye, I'm not suggesting your clique of friends - who are feminist - are abhorrent. I'm glad there are some good ones out there because of this: I have never ever met a feminist that purely wanted equality for women. Either they're involved in a snobbery where women are just better than men (what's the opposite of misogynism?) Or they think that women should have equality + some nice little extras. I can't wait to meet a good feminist who is purely a gender equality activist because right now it seems like the 'media portrayal' of the majority really is the majority.

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#24 No-Danico

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

Then taking feminism out the of equation, just imagine a Star Wars where Leia was sent to Tatooine and Luke grew up on Coruscant. I don’t think it would change much. The whole point of the movie was a farm kid is sent packing after the big bad government comes in and he must make a hero’s journey to stop it. He meets some friends, overcomes obstacles through his own skill and wit, and learns a bit about his past. If you were to change each instance of ‘he’ in that paragraph, would you not watch the movie? I wouldn’t care less.
Strong women are cool. A feminine protagonist can make a book cool. Did anyone read the Hunger Games trilogy? Katness is portrayed as a Byronic hero. That’s something you don’t see very often. I know it kinda got hyped when the movie came out, but it’s a solid series. If you tried to switch her gender, you’d ruin it. Men in books are like that all too often.
Or the Mistborn series. Vin, the female protagonist, plays the role of the scruffy street urchin who gets Merlin’d to a revolutionary figure with magic. Her gender plays an important role in the book.
Cool science lady? Dresden Codak. My absolute favorite webcomic. I’m in love with Kimiko, she’s the coolest science lady since Madame Curie.
My point is: there are plenty of cool female heroes who aren’t just big boobs and revealing outfits. They have depth and character, great role models for little girls to idolize and boys to get attached to. Even militant feminist should have nothing to complain about.

And honestly, I’ve never met a woman in real life who would describe herself as a feminist. I’ve met plenty of strong women who didn’t take shit, but they were just aggressive people, no different from aggressive men. I didn’t know they existed since the suffrage act, back when there was a good cause for fight.

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#25 Diabolical_Jazz

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:35 PM

Aye, I'm not suggesting your clique of friends - who are feminist - are abhorrent. I'm glad there are some good ones out there because of this: I have never ever met a feminist that purely wanted equality for women. Either they're involved in a snobbery where women are just better than men (what's the opposite of misogynism?) Or they think that women should have equality + some nice little extras. I can't wait to meet a good feminist who is purely a gender equality activist because right now it seems like the 'media portrayal' of the majority really is the majority.


See, I've never met a feminist who was anything *but* reasonable. Seriously. Or if I have, they've been very few and I haven't remember them, but I'm reasonably certain I've never met any. And the funny thing is: The people I'm talking about aren't a clique. Several of them have never met each other. I can think of three that have never met each other, two of whom have never met my family. And others who have met only one of the others. Basically these people are entirely random and scattered across the United States.

The other thing is, I'm talking about people that I know less as an argument and more as an expression of why this is a difficult topic for me to discuss.
Anecdotes are the weakest form of evidence, and debates revolving around anecdotes generally accomplish nothing.

I tend to pay more attention to statistics, and the statistics I see tend to indicate that there is a large-scale discrepancy between men and women in terms of wages, in nearly all fields.
I could throw charts at you guys, I've been looking at some. I'm not convinced that I should really be having this debate, though. <__<

And the bit that really gets me is a little bit less concrete, although it is also reasonably well-documented, given the poor report rate. Domestic violence and sexual assault against women is appallingly common. I get that men are generally stronger and are therefore less often the victims of such things, but I'm not trying to compare in that regard. I'm trying to say: Woah. Why is it that such a vast number of people in our society think that it is acceptable to rape and abuse women, just because they are physically capable of doing so? This is something that warrants examination.
When the statistics indicate, across many fields and factors, that women are considered less valuable than men, then feminism is still necessary. Legislation is not the only thing that needs to change. Attitudes and views need to be adjusted, or we are going to continue to live in a world where one out of every three women gets sexually assaulted. ONE OUT OF EVERY THREE.


...
..
.

This is the part where I become irrational and unintelligible. I have to stop now.
I don't think he needs to be immortal. I think all he needs to do is to write the right story. Because some stories do live forever.

#26 Affray

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

If someone is actually concerned about equality, then feminist is not the correct term for them in my eyes.
Initially because it doesn't make sense to me why the pursuit of equality is titled after only one gender, or even after either gender.
Why not equalism?
That isn't even a word in the English language, but isn't it what we want?

Feminism by definition (apparently) is a doctrine advocating social, political, and other rights equal to that of men.
That may have been true when feminism became a thing, and women really were the last in the pecking order of life, but I do not believe the same holds true today.
Women achieved equal rights not long after men did.
I shall have to re-examine the information, but if I recall correctly women were given equal rights about ten years after men were.
Before that not even all men were legally equal to one another.

Modern women have a great many things that their grandmothers would have never imagined would be achieved, especially in their lifetime.

For example:

This is what was expected of women in 1955.

http://j-walk.com/ot...dwife/index.htm

And this is what is expected of women now.

http://www.smh.com.a...0705-1h0an.html


Each a far cry from the other.
Yet every feminist I have ever met seems to think that women are still regarded as dinner cooking baby factories by society, especially men, and that all women need to break free from the shackles of what they are told to be. I understand that not all feminists are blood thirsty wackos, I truly do.
I just don't believe that feminism is a necessary doctrine in today's society where women are quite literally free to do as they please.

Mr.Jazz, fear not the opinions of others.
If you think a certain way no one worth your time will hold it against you.
I am sure there are a few women reading this right now and trying to set my on fire with their minds because my words are arrogant bullshit to them.
But, hopefully they don't think me a sicophant for my very strong opinions.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on any subject, and if you argue your points well enough there is nothing anyone could say to diffuse your words.

It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#27 Diabolical_Jazz

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

Mr.Jazz, fear not the opinions of others.
If you think a certain way no one worth your time will hold it against you.
I am sure there are a few women reading this right now and trying to set my on fire with their minds because my words are arrogant bullshit to them.
But, hopefully they don't think me a sicophant for my very strong opinions.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions on any subject, and if you argue your points well enough there is nothing anyone could say to diffuse your words.


I appreciate that you guys are so supportive of my right to have a differing opinion. :lol:

But my problem isn't that I'm worried about people being mad at me for my differing opinion. I know y'all are better than that.
I am just not confident in my ability to discuss this in a sane way. Without setting things on fire.
I don't have very many things, and I can't go around setting them on fire.
Besides, I'd have to borrow a lighter.
No, no wait, I have my friend's lighter in my car. I could use that.

But I won't. <__<
I'll just... leave off the discussion here.
I don't think he needs to be immortal. I think all he needs to do is to write the right story. Because some stories do live forever.

#28 Affray

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:08 PM

See, I've never met a feminist who was anything *but* reasonable. Seriously. Or if I have, they've been very few and I haven't remember them, but I'm reasonably certain I've never met any. And the funny thing is: The people I'm talking about aren't a clique. Several of them have never met each other. I can think of three that have never met each other, two of whom have never met my family. And others who have met only one of the others. Basically these people are entirely random and scattered across the United States.

The other thing is, I'm talking about people that I know less as an argument and more as an expression of why this is a difficult topic for me to discuss.
Anecdotes are the weakest form of evidence, and debates revolving around anecdotes generally accomplish nothing.

I tend to pay more attention to statistics, and the statistics I see tend to indicate that there is a large-scale discrepancy between men and women in terms of wages, in nearly all fields.
I could throw charts at you guys, I've been looking at some. I'm not convinced that I should really be having this debate, though. <__<

And the bit that really gets me is a little bit less concrete, although it is also reasonably well-documented, given the poor report rate. Domestic violence and sexual assault against women is appallingly common. I get that men are generally stronger and are therefore less often the victims of such things, but I'm not trying to compare in that regard. I'm trying to say: Woah. Why is it that such a vast number of people in our society think that it is acceptable to rape and abuse women, just because they are physically capable of doing so? This is something that warrants examination.
When the statistics indicate, across many fields and factors, that women are considered less valuable than men, then feminism is still necessary. Legislation is not the only thing that needs to change. Attitudes and views need to be adjusted, or we are going to continue to live in a world where one out of every three women gets sexually assaulted. ONE OUT OF EVERY THREE.


...
..
.

This is the part where I become irrational and unintelligible. I have to stop now.


I have also been made wise to the amount of women that I have personally spoken to that have been seriously sexually assaulted, even raped, and it is a far higher number than I ever thought.
Kind of kicked me in the head when it all came to light.

I will point out that women commit just as much violent assault on men as men do on women.
Men just don't report it as often.
Firstly because we usually shrug off that sort of thing, and secondly because most men don't want to seem like a pussy for crying to the police about a woman beating them up.
Thirdly, it is a rarity for a man to win any sort of legal battle against a woman who is being charged with assault.
men are bigger and stronger so we should be able to handle it according to society.
An aquaintance of mine got in a fight with his girlfriend over some stupid relationship stuff and as soon as he raised his voice she hit him in the head with a frying pan, then when he was on the ground bludgeoned him unconscious with a can of beans. He woke up on the kitchen floor hours later and just went to work.

So that particular street goes both ways.
We are equally aggressive with each other's gender.

It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#29 Diabolical_Jazz

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:23 PM

It is true that men have a much lower report rate for domestic violence and sexual assault.

It is not true that the rates of domestic violence and sexual assault are the same among men and women. The rate is significantly higher among women, even allowing for the low report rate among men.
I don't think he needs to be immortal. I think all he needs to do is to write the right story. Because some stories do live forever.

#30 Affray

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:06 PM

It is true that men have a much lower report rate for domestic violence and sexual assault.

It is not true that the rates of domestic violence and sexual assault are the same among men and women. The rate is significantly higher among women, even allowing for the low report rate among men.


Sexual assault is higher against women, yes.
Domestic violence is quite close.
It take superior strength the hold someone down and have your way with them.
It only takes anger and convenience to throw a can of beans or swing a frying pan.
Women are the angrier gender from my experience, and love to express that anger by throwing things.

Though none of this has anything to do with equal rights.
Even if men and women were exactly equal on every level as far as rights go, men will still be in a position to dominate a woman if they decide they want to.
I don't think that our civilization will ever, at least not in the foreseeable future, get past the purely basic animal instincts that got us to where we are today.
It is unfortunate, but quite unavoidable.

It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#31 Wolf

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:55 PM

*scrolls through thread*

*thinking to self: "alright wolfie, you can do this, just derail this thread"*



Hey everyone!

*stands on two legs*

*le precise balance and concentration*

*does 3/4 a backflip and lands on stomach*

*weakly* Ta-Daaaaa~

#32 No-Danico

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

*scrolls through thread*

*thinking to self: "alright wolfie, you can do this, just derail this thread"*



Hey everyone!

*stands on two legs*

*le precise balance and concentration*

*does 3/4 a backflip and lands on stomach*

*weakly* Ta-Daaaaa~



Ya know, there was an awful lotta talk about fire up there. I thought for sure flames would be involved somehow.

At first I thought the topic poster was just spamming for signatures on any forum she could and just happened to land here. But as this went on, I believe she might have achieved a secondary goal: start an open discussion about the sexual inequality, and that might be the first step in solving problems. Seems like a better goal than ‘make the next jedi a woman.’ So, kudos?

That being said, do a back flip through a flaming hoop next time.

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#33 Wolf

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Ya know, there was an awful lotta talk about fire up there. I thought for sure flames would be involved somehow.

At first I thought the topic poster was just spamming for signatures on any forum she could and just happened to land here. But as this went on, I believe she might have achieved a secondary goal: start an open discussion about the sexual inequality, and that might be the first step in solving problems. Seems like a better goal than ‘make the next jedi a woman.’ So, kudos?

That being said, do a back flip through a flaming hoop next time.


You have a point, but feminism is one of "those" arguments, like politics, or the chemical makeup of Trump's hair.

Also, spleen doesn't let me touch matches anymore

not since the church accident

#34 Calvary

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:10 AM

All those children?

I do agree there needs to be greater equality between men and women, there is still the glass ceiling, income equality is being bridged but it still prevalent. I think that's something that will close up in first and second world countries within the century though. Domestic violence I refuse to comment about because there is simply not enough evidence to say one gender or the other commits it more. There aren't enough solid facts about domestic violence to bring it into a gender argument, is what I mean.

The thing is, as Affray said, I would call myself an equalitarian or an equalist, which should be a word but isn't. Not a feminist.

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#35 Affray

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

All those children?

I do agree there needs to be greater equality between men and women, there is still the glass ceiling, income equality is being bridged but it still prevalent. I think that's something that will close up in first and second world countries within the century though. Domestic violence I refuse to comment about because there is simply not enough evidence to say one gender or the other commits it more. There aren't enough solid facts about domestic violence to bring it into a gender argument, is what I mean.

The thing is, as Affray said, I would call myself an equalitarian or an equalist, which should be a word but isn't. Not a feminist.


Precisely.
I am all for women having equality to men, but by today's standards that would make me a feminist.
Which is wholly innacurate.

It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#36 mightydamsels

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:39 PM

I love all of the discussion that has been happening in my absence! Bravo!

Firstly, I would like to say that I consider myself a humanist, but as this word is not yet the norm, I use the term feminist.
Equality in the media has not yet occurred which is evident in the fact that I feel the need to throw a parade whenever there is an important female character in a movie or television show, when if it were an even playing field, it wouldn't be a big deal.

Feminism is not the dirty word people think it is. I have said before on this forum that everyone, excluding rapists, extreme conservatives and frat boys (*see: rapists), are feminists. Of course, like anything, the radicals have ruined it for the rest of us.

Like I said, I don't think that this petition will work. But, it did get you guys talking which I think is just as important.

Finally, I excluded the novels in my little rant about lack of female characters because the majority of people are fans of the movie but have yet to delve into the vast array of reading material.

#37 mightydamsels

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

*movies

#38 No-Danico

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

If you had called yourself a secular humanist I think the tone of discussion would have been much more subdued. It would give a more rational image to things. I think if anything this little discussion has proved that the term feminist leads to radical extremes, and that's what feeds the fires of ignorance.

Precisely.
I am all for women having equality to men, but by today's standards that would make me a feminist.
Which is wholly innacurate.


By today's standards you'd be a rational thinking Humanist. (Note the capital H. It’s different from the philosophy) That's a damn good thing to be.

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#39 Diabolical_Jazz

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:20 AM

I do not like this semantic stuff.
All it really serves to do is dilute the issue and neuter the movement by painting it as a negative.
It's just disassembling feminism. It removes support from where it's needed.

The straw feminism you're all offended by is a myth. It's a speck under a magnifying glass.
This frustrates me beyond words.
I don't think he needs to be immortal. I think all he needs to do is to write the right story. Because some stories do live forever.

#40 Calvary

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:25 AM

I do not like this semantic stuff.
All it really serves to do is dilute the issue and neuter the movement by painting it as a negative.
It's just disassembling feminism. It removes support from where it's needed.

The straw feminism you're all offended by is a myth. It's a speck under a magnifying glass.
This frustrates me beyond words.


Thing is though, as I've said, the only feminist I know are men-disliking Neanderthals who seem to have a severe distaste towards us because men aren't interested in them. I mean, that's what it boiled down to for one in particular I think who frequently lauded about how amazing women were and how stupid men were, when coupled with a book-smart intelligence it was simply diabolical. She doesn't have many friends any more as far as I'm aware, even here goddess women compatriots have deserted her.

And I wouldn't say I'm offended by it because these extreme feminists never get their way. As I've repeatedly said, show me a few feminists that break the norm and I would change my view.

Furthermore, I think semantics are actually key here. A Humanist is not a Feminist, they are too different things, primarily, Humanists want equality for everyone - this is what I classify myself as. Feminists want equality for women. In this sense, you can be a Humanist and Feminist but not a Feminist and a Humanist.

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