45 replies to this topic

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

Also, I may be wrong, but i believe some European countries have less privacy.

My point being that although the U.S. government can "unlawfully" find out about what I am doing or what items i have in my custody .. unless it is truly a threat to national security, they will/can not prosecute without violating the personal privacy act.

[SpleenBeGone]

So, basically sell them to other countries?

Also, I think you fail to realize how many americans would not turn in their guns for money.

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

The border control is a problem admittedly but it's not something that couldn't be reinforced with good policing where the officers are paid fair wages that won't make them inclined to take bribes. The removal of other guns is as simple as offering monetary incentive to turn your guns in before a set date. It's not like there isn't an external market for weapons. See: Africa.

1.) You couldn't pay me enough for a gun I own if they were no longer a commodity.
2.) How is dumping our problem on less developed countries in Africa a solution to gun violence?
3.) Most American gun violence occurs in areas populated by minorities, aka: "black on black crime"

[Calvary]

Also, I may be wrong, but i believe some European countries have less privacy.

My point being that although the U.S. government can "unlawfully" find out about what I am doing or what items i have in my custody .. unless it is truly a threat to national security, they will/can not prosecute without violating the personal privacy act.

Wait, you believe that 'land of the free' stuff? I think the government most certainly will use any means necessary to get what they want. Hell, the whole Iraq War was illegal. Breaking into one person's house isn't even a blip on the radar in comparison.

@Spleen - Hey, it solves your problem does it not? =D

Also, if you say that after a set date the government will criminalise the ownership of pistols, the incentive only increases. You can slap a fine on anyone who doesn't comply after that. Everyone wins.

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

Wait, you believe that 'land of the free' stuff? I think the government most certainly will use any means necessary to get what they want. Hell, the whole Iraq War was illegal. Breaking into one person's house isn't even a blip on the radar in comparison.

@Spleen - Hey, it solves your problem does it not? =D

Also, if you say that after a set date the government will criminalise the ownership of pistols, the incentive only increases. You can slap a fine on anyone who doesn't comply after that. Everyone wins.

and how does breaking into "one person's house" eliminate ALL guns? You think the US Government is going to break into EVERYONEs house? LOL...
First you would have to get all the soilders (And Marines ) and police that work for the US Government to agree. Second the states would have to agree since the National Guard is run by the states... It wont happen.

I'll leave the discussion of 'illegal wars' to those who are inclined to discuss paradoxes.

[SpleenBeGone]

Wait, you believe that 'land of the free' stuff? I think the government most certainly will use any means necessary to get what they want. Hell, the whole Iraq War was illegal. Breaking into one person's house isn't even a blip on the radar in comparison.

@Spleen - Hey, it solves your problem does it not? =D

Also, if you say that after a set date the government will criminalise the ownership of pistols, the incentive only increases. You can slap a fine on anyone who doesn't comply after that. Everyone wins.

Not really, you're talking a gun from me, that will almost certainly never get used for more than shooting at targets, and giving it to a person in a war zone that will almost certainly kill another with it.

Criminalizing them after a set point only encourages people to hide them. You take guns that were once licensed and regulated, and people begin removing serial numbers, trading them about without official exchanges, etc.

The best thing to do is to just make them increasingly harder to get while offering more and more training to those that do have them. Awareness and education is the best defense.

[LD50]

some cities here in the us have strict gun control laws on the books, yet are riddled with some of the highest gun crime rates in the country.

and pawning guns off into africa is hilariously stupid. yes, let's flood one of the bloodiest places in the world with more guns. not to mention many gun runners use the damn place as a base of operations due to the fact that it's a place of constant turmoil. those same guns that were legally purchased and collected dust in someone's closet would soon come back here in the hands of a criminal that would use the thing.

and i have a feeling that most people think you can just walk into a store and purchase a handgun, no questions asked. you can't. you have to fill out paperwork and get screened.

most gun problems stem from illegal guns, most of which aren't even from here. and it's not like banning them would solve the problem. does anyone remember prohibition? or our current war on drugs? you drive them underground, and they won't disappear. things just get ugly.

[Affray]

Obviously it would be exceedingly difficult to round up all of the firearms floating around the States, nigh impossible even.

Also, Americans would definitely be super resistant to give up any firearms they own.

It is unfortunate that most Americans feel that they are in an unsafe enough environment that they need to have an extremely deadly weapon in their home to defend themselves from other people with extremely deadly weapons.

I guess my viewpoint is a fair bit in the opposite direction, being Canadian and whatnot.
I have never even seen a handgun, aside from pellet guns.
Canada has just as many guns kicking around as the States do, yet the only people I ever see with them are farmers.
They only own rifles and shotguns so they can shoot coyotes, wolves or foxes that are trying to kill their livestock.
Or for hunting wild game.
I have never heard anyone who owns a gun say they own that gun for protection from other people.
So the whole concept of having to shoot an intruder is beyond me really.

Canada had just as many criminals at the states as far as I know, our just aren't running around toting pistols as much for some reason.

[Calvary]

Okay I'd like to clarify that I was joking about Africa. I'm a pacifist and I hate guns. You can always change public opinion on guns, make them vilified objects, it's not that hard to do, the temperance movement managed to do it with alcohol quite successfully.

I will explain my opinion properly tomorrow, I've had a terrible day and I've got no energy right now. I don't think I'd convey my point properly right now. =/

[LD50]

alcohol is far from vilified, at least here. drugs on the other hand, you have a point. but that doesn't work here in the states. there are politicians, lobbyists, and entire groups that try their best to vilify them. there are political groups whose sole purpose is trying to get guns outlawed. it has yet to be successful. at least to this point in time.

but i want to be clear, i have never owned a gun. i have never fired a gun. but i've lived in some horrible, horrible places. places where gangs ran rampant, where shootings were an everyday occurance. for me, it's easy for me to see why someone would want a gun for protection. while i don't care for him, my brother was shot at a couple years ago. the guy standing to his right now has a bullet wound in his left shoulder. new orleans and baton rouge are more and more succumbing to gangs like the crips, bloods, ms13, etc. the sad part is, almost all of it is due to the drug prohibition. i've seen my state crack down on guns and fail miserably, so we laxed again. but being lax isn't just handing everyone a gun. there are still checks and balances. conceal permits are hard to get, and very few people have a class three liscense (this allows for the ownership and operation of automatic weaponry) and those are generally businesses (gun shops with military contracts).

[Krankykoala]

Canada had just as many criminals at the states as far as I know, our just aren't running around toting pistols as much for some reason.

particularly in the southern states(the area of the states with the most ordinance) the need to own a gun stems heavily from gang violence. The gang violence stems heavily from the illegal drug trade which pours from mexico.

Legalizing the drugs to end this conflict and thus the need for weapons is not a viable option. I could potentially understand marijuana being legalized, but that is all. Others(which are the ones most trafficked from mexico anyways) would still continue. In particular meth. Point being the drug trade is not likely to end until mexico gets their shit together and gets out from under the cartels thumbs. As this is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future we will continue to buy and own guns for protection.

There is logic behind the guns we own.


Just a quick addition: Rather than go fighting wars halfway across the globe where we don't belong we would be better served using our military to wipe out the cartels. Though mexico would never willingly allow us to place that kind of manpower in their land, largely due to the massively corrupt mexican government.

[SpleenBeGone]

Obviously it would be exceedingly difficult to round up all of the firearms floating around the States, nigh impossible even.

Also, Americans would definitely be super resistant to give up any firearms they own.

It is unfortunate that most Americans feel that they are in an unsafe enough environment that they need to have an extremely deadly weapon in their home to defend themselves from other people with extremely deadly weapons.

I guess my viewpoint is a fair bit in the opposite direction, being Canadian and whatnot.
I have never even seen a handgun, aside from pellet guns.
Canada has just as many guns kicking around as the States do, yet the only people I ever see with them are farmers.
They only own rifles and shotguns so they can shoot coyotes, wolves or foxes that are trying to kill their livestock.
Or for hunting wild game.
I have never heard anyone who owns a gun say they own that gun for protection from other people.
So the whole concept of having to shoot an intruder is beyond me really.

Canada had just as many criminals at the states as far as I know, our just aren't running around toting pistols as much for some reason.

This comes from peoples viewpoint on guns. Most people don't need them, but for one reason or another believe that they do. This is why education is the solution. It will teach people who don't need them, just like the majority of Canadians, just what a dangerous thing they are in untrained hands, and what their proper uses are for, making them more willing not to have or be around them. At the same time, it will help the people who illegitimately do need them, be it someone who lives out on a farm like myself, or a person who lives in a rather bad neighborhood and wants it as a sort of safety blanket to be more responsible with them.

When I was very young, my dad showed me his guns, what they were and made me understand how dangerous they are, instead of hiding them from me and just telling me they were bad. This cure my curiosity over the matter, instead of enforcing it. They were always safely locked up when I was younger unless I had adult supervision, and when I got maybe 8 or 9 I was given a BB gun, and again taught the dangers, even over something seemingly so much less powerful. Because of this, I was always respectful of guns, and knowledgeable of what they're for. If I was to move away from the location I'm at, I'd probably still keep some of my guns. Not because I felt that I needed them for safety, but because some of them are rather old family heirlooms and because I genuinely enjoy target shooting. I believe, and I could of course be wrong, that if people had the knowledge I did, many of them would not feel that they need a gun, or want one. Most of the remainder would be responsible, and they few irresponsible ones could be mostly separated in purchasing. Through this, and lessening the want for them around the world from gangs, drugs, and war torn areas, we could slowly make guns obsolete and turn them into something like swords are now, something that a few people had as decoration, and fewer used for fun, but the majority of people didn't care for or want.

Okay I'd like to clarify that I was joking about Africa. I'm a pacifist and I hate guns. You can always change public opinion on guns, make them vilified objects, it's not that hard to do, the temperance movement managed to do it with alcohol quite successfully.

I will explain my opinion properly tomorrow, I've had a terrible day and I've got no energy right now. I don't think I'd convey my point properly right now. =/

Guns are very vilified here in the states actually, and people are constantly trying to ban them. It's just a mater of coming up with a way to do it that makes the current gun owners and supporters happy.

Also, I hope tomorrow is a better day for you.

alcohol is far from vilified, at least here. drugs on the other hand, you have a point. but that doesn't work here in the states. there are politicians, lobbyists, and entire groups that try their best to vilify them. there are political groups whose sole purpose is trying to get guns outlawed. it has yet to be successful. at least to this point in time.

but i want to be clear, i have never owned a gun. i have never fired a gun. but i've lived in some horrible, horrible places. places where gangs ran rampant, where shootings were an everyday occurance. for me, it's easy for me to see why someone would want a gun for protection. while i don't care for him, my brother was shot at a couple years ago. the guy standing to his right now has a bullet wound in his left shoulder. new orleans and baton rouge are more and more succumbing to gangs like the crips, bloods, ms13, etc. the sad part is, almost all of it is due to the drug prohibition. i've seen my state crack down on guns and fail miserably, so we laxed again. but being lax isn't just handing everyone a gun. there are still checks and balances. conceal permits are hard to get, and very few people have a class three liscense (this allows for the ownership and operation of automatic weaponry) and those are generally businesses (gun shops with military contracts).

particularly in the southern states(the area of the states with the most ordinance) the need to own a gun stems heavily from gang violence. The gang violence stems heavily from the illegal drug trade which pours from mexico.

Legalizing the drugs to end this conflict and thus the need for weapons is not a viable option. I could potentially understand marijuana being legalized, but that is all. Others(which are the ones most trafficked from mexico anyways) would still continue. In particular meth. Point being the drug trade is not likely to end until mexico gets their shit together and gets out from under the cartels thumbs. As this is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future we will continue to buy and own guns for protection.

There is logic behind the guns we own.


Just a quick addition: Rather than go fighting wars halfway across the globe where we don't belong we would be better served using our military to wipe out the cartels. Though mexico would never willingly allow us to place that kind of manpower in their land, largely due to the massively corrupt mexican government.

These two are very good points.

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

I would have to agree that my level of self defense is defined by the people i know about from the domestic news and personal memories I have. People have shown up missing and been found as body parts or in ditches. People who shoot at crowds in schools and theaters. Or even shoot someone irrelevant just to prove a point. My personal 'reality' makes me paranoid and generally more aware when I am out in public. Not to an excessive degree. But I do consider worse case scenarios quite often and I do not like to gamble with my future.

And I found this great site with lots of statistics for anyone Curious:
http://www.tracetheg...tes/VA/exports/

[SpleenBeGone]

That's some interesting information. The fact that Texas has some of the highest import and export rates, but is #39 in gun crime while being surrounded by #17, 19, 11, and 15 is a rather interesting statistic.

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

It shows the geographic boundries drawn on the map have practically no influence... would you agree?

[SpleenBeGone]

I'm not sure there's no influence at all. There is a correlation about where they are imported from. Mostly for ease I imagine.

[Champion of Cyrodiil]

Agreed. Discovered my state is a significant contributor of gun crime. We have more guns being exported than Texas!


27.2% of Virginia's Guns Have a Short Time-to-Crime
The percentage of guns recovered in a crime within two years of original sale — a strong indicator of gun trafficking.
National Average: 22.6%

[CannibalxxAlly]

Ooh, thanks for the link! I went to the shooting range this week and held and shot my first gun!
Started out with a .22 and then a 9mm...it was awesome. Not planning on purchasing one anytime soon, want to feel completely comfortable and confident around guns first. But it was definitely fun and can't wait to go back!
I used to be completely against guns but I've come to accept that people are always going to be able to own them whether legally or illegally. I'd rather prepare myself than find myself in a situation where I regret having not.

[CannibalxxAlly]

Also, it's a good idea to start preparing for the inevitable zombie apocalypse/alien invasion