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#21 Calvary

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 03:52 AM

I am a man who has been threatened with rape by another man. I know how emasculating and disgusting the situation is, so you don't need to tell me women are not the only ones who suffer. Women still face an overwhelming majority when it comes to gender-based violence (GBV) and rape.

 

http://www.nspcc.org...-relationships/

 

This research conveys the fact that 12% of boys between 13-18 have admitted to committing abuse against their partners. For girls this statistic lies at 3%. Let's not pretend that it's an equal playing field and that men are just as hard done by as women. We're not. There is an overwhelming majority of man-on-woman abuse cases, again fuelled by the mere fact that they are a man. Rape and abuse are more often times than not mechanisms of asserting dominance. This is true of man-on-man rape too of course. For instance, last year we had the Sayreville High School Football Team sexual abuse scandal where the older members of the team pinned down and raped four of the younger boys over a ten day period. This is an act of psychological hazing act to assert male dominance over the younger, more 'feminine' boys. It is an assertion of the state of 'manhood' and their masculinity. Now, obviously there are a number of reasons to commit rape; Nicholas Groth described what I believe are considered to be the three socially understood reasons for rape: power, anger and sadism. Perhaps because of explicit porn warping our minds towards what sex should be, perhaps because of our hyper-sexualised society, men have become entitled to sex and will use rape to assert this entitlement. I subscribe to the theory that rape and sexual assault, even physical assault exists to show dominance. It is the ultimate act of forcing your control over someone and it scars them for the rest of their lives. No matter what the case, male rape is far more prevalent in society. In the UK 5% of all women will be raped at some point in their lifetime. In the US the CDC puts that figure at 20%. The number of men raped in the US at some point in their life stands at roughly 17%. The majority of aggressors are male themselves. Feminism targets both genders and aims to reduce GBV in all its forms, but when the majority of people committing GBV are male, regardless of the victim, I don't see where you argument can go.

 

http://www.bls.gov/c...tabook-2011.pdf

 

That document explains the disparity in wages in the US on the grounds of gender and ethnicity, it shows that the median earnings in the USA are $42,800 for men and $34,700 for women, creating a 19% pay gap. Page 52 also shows that women earn significantly less--and have always done so--in average earnings, which takes out all the rich white male millionaires and focuses on John and Jane Doe. This is precisely why feminism is still important, because we are not at equality yet but plenty of people would rather ignore the issue because for whatever reason, they would rather be ignorant than acknowledge the truth and try to fight it.

 

Yes, you're absolutely right that things like maternity leave inequality are unfair, but I don't understand how this is incompatible with feminism? A successful feminist lobby has succeeded in forcing the Conservative and Labour governments here to pledge an inncrease to paternity leave, up to a month from two weeks. It's nowhere near the six months women get but it's a start. Some of the problem stems from patriarchal society which you have flagged up. Men are still expected to be the breadwinners, stay-at-home Dad are looked down upon as feminine or generally lacking in successful male qualities. This fucking sucks and it's an issue perpetuated by the assumption that men ought to toil at the office from nine till five whilst the woman cooks and cleans and changes baby's shitty nappy. Seriously are we still in the 1950s or something? If this is the general perception then things aren't changing fast enough and we absolutely do need feminism to de-construct this bizarre notion that there are places for men and women in work and in the home, based solely on their genitalia.

 

Fortunately, we're seeing steps in the right direction. However if you think it's 'nice' that it's socially acceptable to have a woman cooped up in a house all day with an infant then I think you need to take a long hard look at what you deem acceptable. 

 

http://www.pwc.co.uk...ork-index.jhtml This site has plenty of statistically backed evidence that shows women in the workplace are not some small minority, and that actually 65% of women in Canada are at work.

 

On your point about women choosing more emotionally satisfying jobs that pay less; this is a case of nature versus nurture, you can't just write off a (supposed, I'd like to see the article you're talking about that proves this), majority of females that go into these careers solely based on biology. From incredibly young ages it is drilled into girls that they ought to grow up to do 'girly' jobs. It's why the building industry--one that I know well--is dominated by men. It's why on the enormous site I'm currently working on, there is one female manager for about 20 men. Again, feminism exists to remove these stereotypes and to say that actually, why can't men be nurses and carers? Why shouldn't women be managers or bankers or fucking lumberjacks if they want to be? Jobs ought not be restricted by what's in your pants.

 

Saying that if you have a daughter she will be more disadvantaged than you because she is female is exactly the sort of thinking that allows sexism to keep on trucking.

 

Bollocks. There's a difference between acknowledging and issue and perpetuating it. If you choose to ignore the problem then that's your prerogative. I choose to admit there is an issue and adapt my outlook to be a part of the solution precisely so that the next generation who inherit the world will have a better life than we did.

 

You see it as society having a dick swinging contest about who has it harder because, by what you're saying, it seems you live in an area where equality perhaps is less of an issue, either because it's swept under the carpet or you're lucky enough that men and women are for the most part reaching a point of parity. The rest of the world is not like this though, battles still need to be fought, feminism still fights them.

 

You're right, more divorce is instigated by women, it stands at roughly 66% here in England. It's potentially true that women will initiate a divorce more than men because the court environment weighs in their favour, it's also potentially true because more domestic abuse is faced by women in marriages, there are always two sides to a story. Furthermore, when you look at the long term cost vs benefit of divorce, men still come out on top. It is easier for a man to re-enter the job market and it has been observed by Cambridge Uni that a woman's wage will drop by about 31% immediately after divorce. It's still an issue and yes it seems that over all divorce is one of the few institutions that women have an advantage. It should be an equal playing field but as I keep saying, feminism doesn't exist to keep men under the yolk of oppression or something. It is the patriarchy which continues to perpetuate this issue when you consider the majority of judges and barristers are men.

 

Men do terrible things, terrible things don't happen because they are men.

 

So it's only about genetics when it benefits your argument?

 

 

To be honest half of what you've said would have me put you down as a feminist. Do you really disagree with feminism or simply the stigma?


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#22 fae

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 06:21 AM

I think the problem with feminism is general is that a lot of people think it's a club some man-hating lesbians created. But I think it should be about being strong as a woman but also as a human. Following dreams and not being restricted by gender roles or the expectations that society poses on being "manly" or "womanly"

 

I also read an article a while back pointing out that women tend to choose careers that focus more on interpersonal activities like nursing, social work, psychiatry, personal service worker, etc. All of which are not very high paying jobs. While men tend to strive for high money earning professions over high emotional earning ones. Just another socially/biologically enforced standard for both genders.

That's also why I don't like this statement. I study engineering and I made the experience that this is something weird in the eye of a lot of people. Once I was told by some guy that I was the first good looking female engineer he had ever met. I mean I'm sure it was meant as a compliment but it also implies that only women who are ugly, not womanly would study something like I do. In the same way it is really difficult for a guy to get a training position as a kindergarten teacher because what man would want to spend his day with small children.


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#23 Affray

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 04:23 PM

Gol: I will never consider myself a feminist. I am completely for equal gender rights, but do not believe that feminism can ever achieve that. Even if it is only because of the stigmas that have been placed on feminism because of the radicals and idiots who claim it as their banner. So even though I would do whatever is required to attain equal rights, I would never call it feminism in action. Performing acts to even the scales for everyone is an act of humanity, equality, and logic. Calling it feminism makes me immediately feel like women are taking credit for every little victory. I know that many men call themselves feminists, and that men benefit from most acts of equalisation, but the title alone implies femininity and not equality. Since women really took a foothold in the fight against gender discrimination the research and funds thrown at breast cancer has skyrocketed, which is a really good thing because it is a serious problem for women. Foundations, rallies, parades, marathons, the works. On the other hand, research and funds put toward prostate cancer, which is equally deadly and common, is a puddle compared to the ocean of support for breast cancer. I am not whining or bitching about that, just pointing out that even though feminism fights for both genders, it tends to be women that get the priority in a lot of ways.

 

Where I am is definitely not a bastion of gender equality, but it isn't as far off as most places I don't think.

In Canada men and women make the same money per hour if the same job is being performed.

Not too long ago it wasn't equal, and even then women were making 95% of men's wages, I assumed England was in a similar boat since we sort of borrowed most of our ways from you lot.

 

I am definitely outclassed by you when it comes to knowledge on the subject, probably because you actively participate in it.

Please do not take my opinions as an indication that I do not wish equality across the board.

 

 

I think the problem with feminism is general is that a lot of people think it's a club some man-hating lesbians created. But I think it should be about being strong as a woman but also as a human. Following dreams and not being restricted by gender roles or the expectations that society poses on being "manly" or "womanly"

 

That's also why I don't like this statement. I study engineering and I made the experience that this is something weird in the eye of a lot of people. Once I was told by some guy that I was the first good looking female engineer he had ever met. I mean I'm sure it was meant as a compliment but it also implies that only women who are ugly, not womanly would study something like I do. In the same way it is really difficult for a guy to get a training position as a kindergarten teacher because what man would want to spend his day with small children.

I don't think that either gender should be limited to any specific profession or path.

Unfortunately both genders totally are in most cases.

I have a buddy who went to school for nursing and he was one of two men in a class of about sixty.

He is, however, a very sensitive man who has many traits that would be considered feminine.

He is fairly constantly ribbed and joked at by his brothers and most friends for his choice of profession, which is fine for his brothers because they are just doing it because they constantly mock each other for everything and I don't think it would matter what job he chose they would make fun. 

 

When I was in grade seven or eight there was a male teacher who was supposed to take over the kindergarten class and a handful of the parents petitioned for the school to find a female alternative because they didn't trust their young children with an adult man all day every day without some other supervision. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but looking back I am pretty pissed off at those parents and to this day don't take their opinions with much consideration.

 

I have worked construction a fair bit myself and actually ran in to quite a few females in a lot of positions.

Architects, designers, forklift driver, electrician, the lady who delivered drywall with a flat bed truck was indeed a woman.

Though I understand that it is a super male dominated sort of work for the most part, I think I just managed to find all of the exceptions all clustered together.

 

My little sister wants to be an engineer of some sort and is planning her schooling accordingly.

A few of her teachers told her that it is tough to become an engineer in the first place, and most employers don't want women working for them in that field.

She told those them that if she got to that point and was denied a job because she was a woman she would flip those assholes the bird and tell them to suck her she-cock.

My sister is, impressive.


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#24 Bowsette

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 05:01 PM

. Since women really took a foothold in the fight against gender discrimination the research and funds thrown at breast cancer has skyrocketed, which is a really good thing because it is a serious problem for women. Foundations, rallies, parades, marathons, the works.

Also worth noting that sometimes (read: almost always) events to raise money for breast cancer research exclude men. There's a sponsored 5KM race early next month here, all proceeds go towards the research and support for curing breast cancer, as well as caring for those who suffer from it. And, to quote the official website.

The Race for Life is organised by Cancer Research UK, and events are run all over the UK. The race is a charity run for women and children who are looking to raise money for Cancer Research UK to help them to continue their groundbreaking research into new drugs and treatment for Breast Cancer.

 

And yet, breast cancer is not gender-specific. Men can suffer from it too. Yes, at a lesser rate, but nonetheless it can affect men. So why, exactly, are men forbidden from showing their support?


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#25 The Seldom Seen Kid

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 05:34 PM

I will never consider myself a feminist. I am completely for equal gender rights...

This when reduced to its bare bones you can see makes no sense. Feminism is, as Gol has well put, a way for men and women to achieve equality between one another. There is no, 'we are better than men' or, 'we hate men' in feminism like some people think. Now I know there are people who claim to be feminists and go on about how they hate men and are better than men, but the simple fact here is, they are not feminists, they are misandrists. This is because, you cannot find yourself as equal to another person if you hate them and think of yourself as their better. This can clearly be seen as a contradiction. So no, feminists can't hate men, it is literally impossible by definition of the word. For one to say, 'I am a feminist and thus want equality between men and women' is an analytic statement that is necessarily true i.e. stating the opposite, 'I am a feminist and thus find myself better thafthn men' implies a juxtaposition. 

 

But enough about the definition of the word here are some statistics I feel are necessary to state seeing as you previously mentioned that women are equal to men.

 

Only 23% of members of the house of lords are women. (182 out of 779) www.parliament.co.uk, 2013

 

1 in 3 girls aged 16 to 18 have experienced unwanted sexual touching at school. YouGov, 2010

 

33% of girls aged 13 to 17 have experienced some form of sexual abuse. NSPCC, 2009

 

Nearly a third of young men think that domestic violence is acceptable if their partner has been nagging them. NUS, Hidden Marks Survey, 2010

 

87% of American women aged 18 to 64 have been harassed by a male stranger Penn Schoen Berland Associates, 2000

 

Women working full time in the UK in 2012 earned 14.9% less than men. Fawcett Society, 2013

 

The average female executive earns £423,000 less over her lifetime than a male worker with an identical career path. CMI, 2012

 

More than 70% of recruitment agencies have been asked by clients to avoid hiring pregnant women or those of childbearing age. UK Equalities Review, 2007

 

More than half of women sex workers have been raped or sexually assaulted and 75% have been physically assaulted. Home office, 2004

 

603 million women live in countries where domestic violence is still not a crime. VN Women, 2003

 

85,000 women per year are raped in the UK. Ministry of Justice, Home Office for National Statistics, 2013

 

Seems like a lot of nasty stuff huh? Well there is so much more I could put but decided instead to condense it still. 

 

These statistics come from the book, 'Everyday sexism' which is also a twitter page for people to speak out. Now to show you that the problems of men are indeed in the interest of feminists, there is a section dedicated to them. With statistics for that section as well.

 

I can list some if you want, but I think you've had enough for today.



#26 Affray

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 07:45 PM

I fear that what I have said has convinced a few of you that I don't think women have problems on a daily basis based on their gender.

That is not the case.

I do not need random bits of info that pertain to how badly women are victimised world wide to convince me that it is happening.


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#27 Calvary

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 01:25 AM

No I get what you're saying. It's a shame that you wouldn't associate yourself with the feminist movement purely on stigma, I mean would you do the same thing to the Muslims because of Al Qaida or to Christians for the IRA. An association with negativity is a powerful mechanic to undermine a group of people if they challenge social norms. Through the media and the older generations it is passed on to the masses that feminism equals bra burning women, foaming at the mouth as they lock men in cages and fuel generators with our tears, but that's just not the case. Don't get me wrong I used to think exactly the same thing (I'm not trying to be condescending here seriously, just trying to put forward that I understand where you're coming from); after seeing some self proclaimed feminists and how they acted first hand, I saw what I thought was the majority. It is only when one of my best friends calmly and politely explained to me that all the sort of things I felt about equality made me a feminist, that the veil was lifted, as it were. I suppose in that way, whether or not you or I or anyone likes the movement, simply wanting gender equality makes one a feminist, whether one declares oneself as such or not.


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#28 Affray

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 08:34 PM

I would have to disagree about being lumped in as a feminist just because we both desire equal gender rights.

I happen to uphold many of the practices and viewpoints that Christianity preaches, like treating your fellow man as you would wish to be treated, no murder, no coveting your neighbours wife, practice kindness on everyone by default from the richest man to the poorest. All the good stuff.

I am not a Christian though, not by a long shot.

So just because I maintain similar ideals as a group does not mean I am automatically part of it.

 

I don't think all feminists are dicks, though I know some that are. Just like I don't think all Lutherans are dicks even though I had it out with a Pastor the other day (see specific thread detailing my epic battle).

I think we can easily have a successful gender rights movement without calling it feminism in action.


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#29 Calvary

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 01:46 PM

Feminism is equality for everyone regardless of gender. That's all it is. Anyone who says they are a feminist but campaigns for anything other than equality is not a feminist. 


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#30 Elfie

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:29 PM

I am in no way fighting or trying to be rude, but as a woman I can truthfully admit that being followed, thinking twice about the clothes I wear, how nice I'm being to guys, walking in the dark or in front of men is intimidating and scary. That's not an exaggeration.. I'm sure most do it without a second thought. It seems cool the we get free drinks but I don't see that as a guy trying to get to know me, I see it like he's try to get me drunk, to either make me easier or force. Those are very real, and that's not touching work or the lack of respect for my brain. Everything is tied into looks.. Being taken seriously is difficult. i agree men have very real gender issues as well.. Always havin to be tough and handy, tall, strong.. It's a load.. We are human!


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#31 Elfie

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 08:54 AM

I knew it would happen. I enter this convo, and now all I see is ridiculous comments on facebook.. Save me from the blind and ridiculousness!!!


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#32 fae

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:02 PM

what's going on elf?  :o


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#33 Elfie

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:15 PM

This guy I know made a status that said something like, women have a hard time with rejection. I said, so do men.. He said you mean boys, so I said, then you mean girls.. Then he said if 35 can be considered a girl.. I informed him age has nothing to do with acting like an adult. He then said she got all bitchy when I turned her down.. Well that sucks.. Guys also can react negatively towards rejection... I'm just not in the mood for dumb people.. That's all.


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#34 Elfie

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:19 PM

I don't like reading stupid stuff girls post about being liars and cheaters and I don't like it visa versa..


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#35 fae

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Posted 27 March 2015 - 12:21 PM

I think generally people post to much personal info in facebook..


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#36 Mister Sympa

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 08:25 PM

I don't like reading stupid stuff girls post about being liars and cheaters and I don't like it visa versa..

I defriended someone I've known since I was four years old because I was sick of that shit.

 

That and racism.


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#37 flcl_grim

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 09:43 PM

If the KKK suddenly stopped being about White Supremacy and started being about racial equality, they would change their name.

When Feminism changed from a movement focused on Female-only "equality" (while actually being a middle-class based revolt for the sake of special interest in almost every case; see when the ERA was killed multiple times because of a radical feminist group's rider bill).

 

You do not get to continue to use the social impetus of a movement (id est hijack the movement) in order to further advertise it to everyone.  "He for She" is an advertisement campaign, and marketing has been heavily involved in modern popular Identity Politics for ages.  In order to transcend class and obtain true equality, you have to discard the classes entirely and see through to the truly oppressive classifications, and, most importantly, the logical errors and other bias-based reasons that people have been fed (or fed themselves) in order to continue implementing the same oppressive lies.

Everyone can see that not everyone fits into a social construction of Masculinity or Femininity when you give them the right light, and when you do that, people start to challenge the very words we use to describe those interactions, like Feminism.  You do not get to rename "Feminism."  Make a new movement based on true equality--not on keeping the same gendered classifications and biases for everyone while simultaneously proclaiming that everyone is a special snowflake.

Yes, the people must organize, but organization is not automatically bulletproof, and the methods supported by the ideology propped up by Feminism is absolutely dilletante.  No need to perpetuate these baseless institutions, and there is no need to organize to teach people reason--when you give someone a taste of it that puts their sour ideologies to shame, they will want more.



#38 Calvary

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 11:22 AM

Boy, you be tripping.


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#39 Elfie

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 01:24 PM

Straight trippin boo


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#40 AliceInTheHoleWithRabbits

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 07:51 PM

We should all get our Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie reading updated. Here's some excerpts from her TED speech: http://www.feminist....om/adichie.html

 

Feminism is often misunderstood (because there is extremism). I have a girl friend who commits this mistake, and although she's one of the few people I know I can talk about politics, science and relevant things like that, she's very hostile when it comes to feminism, and most of the time seems that she doesn't even recognise machism as real. So, I don't feel comfortable to share my thoughts with her. 

 

Still, I don't think media in general is willing to social changes - in fact, the opposite. It's good to see that Hollywood mates like Terry are not (completely) ignorant.


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