Jump to content

Photo

Nous Sommes Tous Charlie


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
76 replies to this topic

#41 The Seldom Seen Kid

The Seldom Seen Kid

    Seldom Seen

  • Members
  • 476 posts
  • LocationEngland

Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:38 PM

This all looks like a game of religious top trumps.



#42 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:41 PM

This all looks like a game of religious top trumps.

Not really.  I'm a Lutheran, the loosey-goosey-est of the sects of Christianity.  Basically, we believe that all that is necessary to get into Heaven is the belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior.  Everything else is up to human interpretation, which isn't very good usually.  So, yeah.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#43 The Seldom Seen Kid

The Seldom Seen Kid

    Seldom Seen

  • Members
  • 476 posts
  • LocationEngland

Posted 10 January 2015 - 07:29 PM

Wait what's that got to do with my observation?



#44 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 10 January 2015 - 09:37 PM

Wait what's that got to do with my observation?

I got a minor in Religious Studies (and a second minor in Asian Studies along with a double major in just four years, so yeah, I kept my ass busy.)

 

I was just displaying my classically learned knowledge about religion and whatnot.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#45 DeadChannel

DeadChannel

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 1,088 posts
  • LocationNotlob

Posted 11 January 2015 - 01:58 AM

Gonna drop in again to talk.

Strictly speaking, as an atheist I disagree with Islam. I also disagree with some (a lot, actually) of it from a moral pov.
I also disagree (on both these grounds) with Christianity, Judaism and the giant flying spaghetti monster on the moon (okay, that's a meme that's been going around the atheist community. I couldn't resist).

This doesn't make me racist because religion and race are different. Religion is an ideology, and therefore not exempt from criticism. I think most westerners idealized all Muslims as belonging to a specific ethnic group, which is where the accusation of racism come from.

But, that is not to say that all theists are bad people. Or that all atheists are good people. I'm friends with plenty of theists, and we get on fine (admittedly, ignoring the theism debate. Which means me not admitting to being atheist, oddly enough.)

Also: what Christianity preaches is just as bad as any other religion. I appreciate that not everyone is a biblical literalist (ie. not homophobic, possibly not believing in talking snakes etc), but this can also be said about Muslims or Jews. Saying that Christians can cherry pick but not any other religion is a double standard.

Also also: someone said something about misogyny regarding Charlie Hebdo. I wasn't seeing any specific examples of misogyny (or racism - I really just saw antireligious stuff). That doesn't mean they weren't there, but I'd appreciate a specific example.
I'm fearful, I'm fearful, I'm fearful of flying, and flying is fearful of me.

#46 fae

fae

    Terabyte

  • Members
  • 1,329 posts
  • LocationOver the hills, where the seven dwarfs dwell

Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:40 AM

No.

 

He used the words of various people to justify his actions to his people.  But he was not a religious man himself.  It's a misconception because some people started pushing the propaganda as Hitler's real beliefs.  Which leads to awful bullshit.  Hitler was a terrible person who hated Jews and used that hatred to evil ends as a means of getting power.

Fair enough.. but that's not the point. Just because these men are Muslims not all people with that religion are bad.. Even if the Koran says that all other religions are bad.. the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin but that doesn't mean all Christians want to rid the world of homosexuals.. The men who did this are bad people and they should be punished. But it's not right to punish a whole religion with them.


Et j'aime la nuit écouter les étoiles. C'est comme cinq cent millions de grelots. - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


#47 The Seldom Seen Kid

The Seldom Seen Kid

    Seldom Seen

  • Members
  • 476 posts
  • LocationEngland

Posted 11 January 2015 - 05:54 AM

I got a minor in Religious Studies (and a second minor in Asian Studies along with a double major in just four years, so yeah, I kept my ass busy.)

 

I was just displaying my classically learned knowledge about religion and whatnot.

Well that's just fantastic and I'm very proud of you. But like your first response, I didn't ask to know that nor was that what I was addressing.



#48 Calvary

Calvary

    Conceptual

  • Members
  • 6,624 posts
  • Locationwww.

Posted 11 January 2015 - 08:23 AM

Ugh, I'll work my way forwards from the second page then.

 

 

Dude, Westboro is a bunch of loonies, and everybody knows it. What kills me is the hierarchy of the Romanc catholic church protects pedophile priests. And then there are the people that go to church and beg forgiveness for sins they know they will repeat.
I believe in God. I believe that the Bible is a good GUIDEBOOK for living. The Koran is a Religious DOCTRINE.
When they start giving equal time in schools for both followers of God and Allah, we'll see. But as it is they are pushing the doctrines of Islam in American schools (and yes it is happening) and punishing kids for praying to God. IE--Christian prayer groups are punished and removed from school grounds but Muslim students are given rooms for prayer.

 

Have you actually read the Qu'ran to validate this, or spoken to any small portion of the 1.6 billion Muslims spread all over the world? Have you taken into consideration that you have Sunnis, Shiites, Ahmadis, Kharijites, Sufists and non-denominational Muslims with dozens of sects and sub-sects below them with each school of thought holding a different view on the teaching of the Qu'ran and how literal or metaphorical the text is? How can you possibly tar the Koran as a doctrine as opposed to the Bible being a guidebook when you literally just talked about Westboro Christians who take the Bible as a literal fact; the word of god in its purest form?

 

Moreover where is your statistically backed, independently gathered evidence that says Islam is being pushed in American schools whilst punishing children for praying to the Christian god? 73% of Americans are Christian, almost the entirety of your politicians are Christian, children are forced to pledge allegiance to Christian god and the flag at school every morning. Christian god is on your money, Christian god is in your inaugural speech. The Christian god is swaddled comfortably in the loins of American law, bureaucracy and military. So please, please show me your evidence to prove that Christian children are some how punished for praying whilst having Islam slowly and malevolently pressed upon them. If you're simply being hyperbolic and you're actually talking about Islam being taught alongside other religions in religious studies in America, then what is the problem? What is wrong with teaching children about international religion? Won't that help rid the world of the vacuous, ignorant and insipid knee-jerk opinions based on xenophobia and ethnic conservatism that we are seeing internationally at the moment?

 

When your religious leaders are also your state (government) leaders, there is a big problem.

And I give. Nobody wants to believe that this is happening. And that's ok. But this is going to be your future. This is the madness that they fought during the crusades. I guess it will just have to happen more here at home.

 

The enormous irony of your first sentence, I don't even need to address this do I?

 

Are you honestly comparing the 21st century Muslims to those that fought in Crusades that happen between the 8th and 13th centuries? Were the Middle-Eastern Crusades some sort of medieval precursor to a modern international religious war fought between Christians and Muslims? Will there be a flare of Christian organised anti-Semitism across Europe, by that reasoning? Will we see a second-Saladin rise and promote religious pluralism in the Middle East? Is all this our future or are you talking about? Or is this just another baseless argument put forward out of emotion rather than hard fact?

 

Yes, but I have standards and principles.  And America has a leadership structure in place which means a President can't be one for too long.  Term limits are a great thing.

 

No.

 

He used the words of various people to justify his actions to his people.  But he was not a religious man himself.  It's a misconception because some people started pushing the propaganda as Hitler's real beliefs.  Which leads to awful bullshit.  Hitler was a terrible person who hated Jews and used that hatred to evil ends as a means of getting power.

 

People need to stop pushing Noam Chomsky arguments...

 

And, yet, you forget that was a three-way conflict that went on for a Hell of a long time.  The banner of Islam lead to many pillages during the Crusades as well.

 

And, there's a general "reason" why Islam philosophically hates the Jewish people.  Ishmael.  Look into that religious figure.  Not an excuse, but that's where it all started.

 

America has a leadership structure yes...so do Muslims, so does almost every other country in the world, so does ISIL, so do the LRA, just because the American one limits the length of time any one president can be in power, that does not make any significant reduction in political corruption. Since 2008 we've seen two members of the House of Representatives (one Democrat, one Republican) charged for bribery and fraud, what did this have to do with the incumbent president? Take a step back and look objectively at the American system of government and you will see that whether a president serves one term or five, the chance of the country becoming some sort of autocratic regime is nill. This is the kind of unsubstantiated rubbish McCarthy used to prattle on about in his Communist witch hunts for goodness sake.

 

In regards to your comment on anti-Semitism: Europe--by and large a Christian continent--has had historical issue with anti-Semitism in every single country and principality that has ever stood for any significant amount of time since the Roman conquests. If you believe anti-Semitism is simply a religiously induced problem then your university minor in religion means nothing. Islam, Christianity and through Christianity, Hinudism, have all perpetuated a hatred of the Jewish nation on the grounds of not only religion and religious history, but because Jews have formed hugely successful communities. They also tend to play significant roles in the intelligentsia, logician and banking circles within countries and--as we are seeing now with the rise of Islamophobia--when a new or challenging idea is spread in a state where it has never before flourished, people are more than willing to find any means to attack them to preserve the norm. Religion is just an easy excuse.

 

I already addressed the Crusade nonsense so I don't need to repeat myself there, only that if you're talking about things that happened 800 years ago and attempting to make them relevant today, you're wasting your time.

 

Not really.  I'm a Lutheran, the loosey-goosey-est of the sects of Christianity.  Basically, we believe that all that is necessary to get into Heaven is the belief in Jesus Christ as one's Savior.  Everything else is up to human interpretation, which isn't very good usually.  So, yeah.

 

Didn't you kind of just perpetuate the inter-religion dick swinging going on that you were called out for?

 

 

 

 

Right now in London we're seeing something remarkable, an almost entirely spontaneous unity march between Muslims and non-Muslims, walking through the city in condemnation of the terrorist attack and in solidarity with our channel-divided cousins. This is possibly the greatest social outcome anyone could hope for. I know something similar is happening in Paris too where we have non-Muslims and Muslims and all ethnicities coming together, arms linked, marching through the streets in equality.


tumblr_om7nwjm5Wm1rsea1wo1_500.gif
Ask for my discord/Insta/Tumblr if you want.


#49 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:18 PM

Gonna drop in again to talk.

Strictly speaking, as an atheist I disagree with Islam. I also disagree with some (a lot, actually) of it from a moral pov.
I also disagree (on both these grounds) with Christianity, Judaism and the giant flying spaghetti monster on the moon (okay, that's a meme that's been going around the atheist community. I couldn't resist).

This doesn't make me racist because religion and race are different. Religion is an ideology, and therefore not exempt from criticism. I think most westerners idealized all Muslims as belonging to a specific ethnic group, which is where the accusation of racism come from.

But, that is not to say that all theists are bad people. Or that all atheists are good people. I'm friends with plenty of theists, and we get on fine (admittedly, ignoring the theism debate. Which means me not admitting to being atheist, oddly enough.)

Also: what Christianity preaches is just as bad as any other religion. I appreciate that not everyone is a biblical literalist (ie. not homophobic, possibly not believing in talking snakes etc), but this can also be said about Muslims or Jews. Saying that Christians can cherry pick but not any other religion is a double standard.

Also also: someone said something about misogyny regarding Charlie Hebdo. I wasn't seeing any specific examples of misogyny (or racism - I really just saw antireligious stuff). That doesn't mean they weren't there, but I'd appreciate a specific example.

I knew many like you in college and in the nerd circles I frequent.

 

A lot of atheists against Christianity seem to equate all that the Catholic Church did, does, and continues to do as stuff all Christians agree with and stand by.  Far from it.

 

We Protestants probably hate the Catholic Church more than you atheists do.  They perverted Jesus's teachings for greedy ends.  Purgatory was only seemingly invented to make money on the blatant cash grab that was the Pardon system.  Read "The Pardoner's Tale" from The Canterbury Tales for more information about that.  (The first place I remember hearing about them, which is why I remember it so well.)

 

Oh, the Bible literalist canard.  Only someone who doesn't know anything about Christianity would push that line.  I really hate that argument.  It just displays blatant ignorance of Christianity.  Most people who push that argument only take examples from the Old Testament, ignoring that the New Testament is the only one Christians believe actually happened.  We see most of the Old Testament, which is essentially the Torah of Judaism, as morality plays that may not have actually happened because we can't find a written record to prove they may have.  Jesus did exist.  Historians can't say he didn't actually exist.

 

In essence, Jesus cherry-picked the Old Testament for us.  He basically said, "Hey, you can totally eat any food you want." and other such teachings.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#50 Calvary

Calvary

    Conceptual

  • Members
  • 6,624 posts
  • Locationwww.

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:36 PM

Jesus did exist.  Historians can't say he didn't actually exist.
 
In essence, Jesus cherry-picked the Old Testament for us.  He basically said, "Hey, you can totally eat any food you want." and other such teachings.



Erm, where's the proof that he did? I missed that memo.

tumblr_om7nwjm5Wm1rsea1wo1_500.gif
Ask for my discord/Insta/Tumblr if you want.


#51 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:48 PM

Erm, where's the proof that he did? I missed that memo.

When I can use Wikipedia to prove an argument, the other side ain't tryin' very hard...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus'

 

(He existed historically, which is precisely what I said.)


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#52 Calvary

Calvary

    Conceptual

  • Members
  • 6,624 posts
  • Locationwww.

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:50 PM

No, I asked for proof. Not the historicity of Jesus Wikipedia article.

tumblr_om7nwjm5Wm1rsea1wo1_500.gif
Ask for my discord/Insta/Tumblr if you want.


#53 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:54 PM

No, I asked for proof. Not the historicity of Jesus Wikipedia article.

#Facepalm.

 

The "atheist asks for proof when he knows none truly exists for what he's really asking" fallacy.

 

I'm a Christian.  Historians say he existed historically.  That's all I need to affirm my faith.

 

Faith does not require proof, at least not the proof you seek.  Humans do not have the capacity to understand an omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being.  We lack the ability as humans to comprehend all of that.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#54 Calvary

Calvary

    Conceptual

  • Members
  • 6,624 posts
  • Locationwww.

Posted 11 January 2015 - 02:58 PM

Lol the old, 'the onus isn't on me to prove the makebelief son of a sky man argument'...

You said he's real, the onus is on you to prove it or else it's fair game to laugh.

tumblr_om7nwjm5Wm1rsea1wo1_500.gif
Ask for my discord/Insta/Tumblr if you want.


#55 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:03 PM

Lol the old, 'the onus isn't on me to prove the makebelief son of a sky man argument'...

You said he's real, the onus is on you to prove it or else it's fair game to laugh.

Yeah, because I believe it.  You're asking me to provide proof for something I believe.  You believe in no God.  I'm not asking for your proof, am I?

 

You ask me, as a human, to provide proof of God to a skeptical person.  That doesn't work.  You're utilizing a fallacy which you think is a clever point.  It's not.  My best friend in college was a Noam Chomsky fanboy, Democracy Now! reading, computer science major, militant atheist.  I learned a lot about things I never knew before by having these kinds of conversations I'm having with you with him.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#56 Calvary

Calvary

    Conceptual

  • Members
  • 6,624 posts
  • Locationwww.

Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:05 PM

Because I didn't invent a god. 

 

I'm not being baited into this mind-numbing argument.

 

If I said to you an invisible purple unicorn existed, I'd have to prove it to you. Not the other way around. I'm done.


tumblr_om7nwjm5Wm1rsea1wo1_500.gif
Ask for my discord/Insta/Tumblr if you want.


#57 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 03:07 PM

Because I didn't invent a god. 

 

I'm not being baited into this mind-numbing argument.

 

If I said to you an invisible purple unicorn existed, I'd have to prove it to you. Not the other way around. I'm done.

I didn't invent God either.  You have your own belief system.  I'm not asking for your proof because I understand such an inquiry is completely pointless.  It's a circle jerk of reasoning.

 

Jesus existed.  Historically, he existed.  It was only 2,015 years ago or so that he was born.  Expecting me to give you further proof of this means you lack the ability to find it yourself.  Probably because you believe the proof does not exist.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#58 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:32 PM

Here's a good article on the topic of this thread:

 

http://www.breitbart...it-can-recover/


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."

#59 Bowsette

Bowsette

    Tentacular!

  • Members
  • 4,064 posts

Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:46 PM

My invisible unicorn says you're silly.


LL1Yc5i.gif

“Shimatta! Bare… nan no koto kashira?”


#60 Big_Willie_Styles

Big_Willie_Styles

    Gigabyte

  • Members
  • 965 posts
  • LocationInside my mind

Posted 11 January 2015 - 04:50 PM

My invisible unicorn says you're silly.

My loveable space alien with an addiction to ironic T-shirts thinks everything is awesome.


"The Curious Task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."