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#21 Affray

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:02 AM

It's the principle of the thing.  Defending freedom of speech means defending even the worst speech. Because if it becomes OK to censor the worst speech, all speech is open to it.

 

If more publications had the balls to do what they did knowing the potential (and now realized) risk, it would break the fever of the insane assholes who think it's OK to kill people for offending them.

 

It is only low brow in your opinion.  You don't have to agree with their tastes to understand that it doesn't matter what their tastes are.  Their tastes were used as justification by maniacs to kill them.

I never argued their right to produce any sort of comic they chose, I am all for everyone world wide being able to say whatever they please.

I do not in any way think that they, or any future folk, should be censored from fear of provoking violence from angry, ignorant people.

I simply feel that the whole thing was a senseless mess.


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#22 Big_Willie_Styles

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:11 AM

I never argued their right to produce any sort of comic they chose, I am all for everyone world wide being able to say whatever they please.

I do not in any way think that they, or any future folk, should be censored from fear of provoking violence from angry, ignorant people.

I simply feel that the whole thing was a senseless mess.

The fact that those kinds of people still exist, where they will straight up execute you for offending their religious figure of choice, is infuriating on many levels.


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#23 Affray

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:13 AM

The fact that those kinds of people still exist, where they will straight up execute you for offending their religious figure of choice, is infuriating on many levels.

Agreed.

Sooner or later the ignorant hate mongers will die out.

Most of them anyway.


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#24 Big_Willie_Styles

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:30 AM

Agreed.

Sooner or later the ignorant hate mongers will die out.

Most of them anyway.

Not with the educational and propaganda infrastructure in various countries controlled by tyrants, warlords, and the like.  It stays until external forces stop it or it collapses in on itself.


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#25 Calvary

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 03:34 AM

The fact that those kinds of people still exist, where they will straight up execute you for offending their religious figure of choice, is infuriating on many levels.

 

They do it for their religion.

 

America does it for its own supposedly democratic, liberty orientated values.

 

The Christians have done it for their religion and continue to do it with even more malevolent means than outright execution. Not that it's beyond them.

 

Atheist states have done it to the religious when religion interfered with their power structure.


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#26 fae

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 04:49 AM

Of course. And in a way, it's justified. If somebody commits an atrocity and outright claims it is for their religion, you are going to have your opinion of that religion coloured. Islamic terrorism is a pretty big thing lately, and when you take into account what some of the leading moderate Muslim preachers have said (I forget who, but a British preacher claimed that everything is mandated by Allah; nothing is by accident, nothing is free will. All life is laid out by Allah) So, it's kind of understandable for people to be wary, when the people in power of the religion aren't outright condemning these actions.

This is just sad.

 

Then again the media is a powerful tool. And everyone is influenced by what they tell us. It's quite easy not to lie and still not to tell the truth. And depending on what they want people to believe they just leave out one or the other fact and the whole article has a whole different meaning.

Also I'm pretty sure that Hitler was religious as well. But no one thinks that all the other Christians would do as he did.


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#27 Calvary

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 04:50 AM

That's because correlation does not imply causation.


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#28 fae

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 04:53 AM

That's because correlation does not imply causation.

That's what I was trying to say


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#29 midnightblue

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:00 AM

Hitler wasn't religious per se, he was massively into the occult though.  Stalin was an atheist and murdered millions.  It's not a religion thing, but religion is a handy tool for fucked up people to do fucked up things.



#30 Calvary

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:05 AM

That's what I was trying to say

 

Yeah I was agreeing with you. Sorry I literally just woke up I wasn't trying to sound blunt or bitchy haha.


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#31 fae

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:26 AM

Yeah I was agreeing with you. Sorry I literally just woke up I wasn't trying to sound blunt or bitchy haha.

No worries. I would have written it in your words.. but since I'm not native English I mostly use much more words than necessary to explain something. ;)


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#32 Calvary

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 05:37 AM

I forget you're not English since you speak so well so I wouldn't worry about it. ^^


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#33 Benihime

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 01:06 PM

The Christian Bible is in exactly the same boat as the Quran as far as content goes.
They share a lot of common stories, themes and people, but recognise different prophets as the son of God.
They both have words of immense wisdom and peace, and contain some of the most fucked up barbaric shit you could imagine.
 
When the Westboro Baptist Church pulls one of their parades of jackassery and makes the whole religion look like a shit sandwich, every not-batshit insane Christian steps up and apolgises for Westboro's ignorance and begs the rest of the world to not judge all Christians by the actions of one group that sports their same religion.
 
A system of faith is never the problem.
What people choose to do with that faith is what can cause problems, or it can be a huge benefit.
Basically, people are often a bunch of bastards who just need a half decent excuse to be pissed off over nothing and do something stupid.
Which has nothing to do with which Big Book of God they prefer.


Dude, Westboro is a bunch of loonies, and everybody knows it. What kills me is the hierarchy of the Romanc catholic church protects pedophile priests. And then there are the people that go to church and beg forgiveness for sins they know they will repeat.
I believe in God. I believe that the Bible is a good GUIDEBOOK for living. The Koran is a Religious DOCTRINE.
When they start giving equal time in schools for both followers of God and Allah, we'll see. But as it is they are pushing the doctrines of Islam in American schools (and yes it is happening) and punishing kids for praying to God. IE--Christian prayer groups are punished and removed from school grounds but Muslim students are given rooms for prayer.
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#34 Calvary

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 01:16 PM

Hahaha, course they are.

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#35 Bowsette

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 01:22 PM

Maybe in the Muslim schools... which is perfectly acceptable, to be honest. If you send your Christian kid to a Muslim school, it's kind of obvious they aren't going to give them the same religious freedoms, since y'know... your kid's religion is wrong to them.


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#36 Benihime

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 01:28 PM

http://www.breitbart...teaching-islam/

http://victoriajacks...lam-video-proof

http://www.islaminourschools.com

Just google "schools teaching Islam"
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#37 Affray

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 01:46 PM

There is no fundamental difference between Christian and Muslim extremism.

Think about how many people have been murdered in the Western world in random sprees of violence and the killer claimed purpose driven by the Christian Lord.

Not exactly a small number.

If you were a Muslim you would be saying that the assholes who take violent action in the name of their faith are loonies and not all Muslims are insane.

It is not the religion that is the problem, it is the people that choose to use it as a weapon.

A religious doctrine is just a set of beliefs, no negative connotations in any way.

All religious teachings (and some non religious) are doctrine.

 

I have seen the religious inequality in school before however.

It is not quite as you describe it, but it is present.

I went to public school, where no religion is taught but all are allowed.

A friend of mine has Scottish parents and wanted to wear some traditional garb for a remembrance day event and he was stopped from wearing the little knife (ankle mounted I think) that comes with the outfit. He argued that he would only be wearing it at an assembly with a few hundred people watching, and didn't plan on stabbing anyone with the three inch blade. They denied him anyway and he was pissed because it was the proper way his parents' people formally dressed. A few Indian kids were allowed to wear their full regalia, which included a small sword on their hip. Small meaning about a foot and a half long blade.

 

There is a much more lenient system in place for non-local belief systems than there is for the more common/widely accepted ones.

 

As for your links, I have personally experienced the Christian and Catholic versions of individuals overstepping the rules and regulations of religious teachings in public schools. Those articles are super shady, but they don't exactly put forth an image of Islam taking over our schools.


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#38 Benihime

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:01 PM

When your religious leaders are also your state (government) leaders, there is a big problem.

And I give. Nobody wants to believe that this is happening. And that's ok. But this is going to be your future. This is the madness that they fought during the crusades. I guess it will just have to happen more here at home.
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#39 Bowsette

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 02:15 PM

When your religious leaders are also your state (government) leaders, there is a big problem.

And I give. Nobody wants to believe that this is happening. And that's ok. But this is going to be your future. This is the madness that they fought during the crusades. I guess it will just have to happen more here at home.

The "madness" that revolved around Christian soldiers deciding halfway across the Arabian peninsula that, rather than visiting Christian monuments, they'd murder, rape, and pillage any Muslims they came across?

 

Not to mention that Muhammad's decision to take over that area was actually welcomed, because the Sassanids and Byzantines had fucked each other in years of war and were incapable of looking after their own peoples. The Rashidun Caliphate that formed after created a massive, stable empire, arguably better than any other at the time in the world.


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#40 Big_Willie_Styles

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Posted 10 January 2015 - 04:16 PM

They do it for their religion.

 

America does it for its own supposedly democratic, liberty orientated values.

 

The Christians have done it for their religion and continue to do it with even more malevolent means than outright execution. Not that it's beyond them.

 

Atheist states have done it to the religious when religion interfered with their power structure.

Yes, but I have standards and principles.  And America has a leadership structure in place which means a President can't be one for too long.  Term limits are a great thing.

This is just sad.

 

Then again the media is a powerful tool. And everyone is influenced by what they tell us. It's quite easy not to lie and still not to tell the truth. And depending on what they want people to believe they just leave out one or the other fact and the whole article has a whole different meaning.

Also I'm pretty sure that Hitler was religious as well. But no one thinks that all the other Christians would do as he did.

No.

 

He used the words of various people to justify his actions to his people.  But he was not a religious man himself.  It's a misconception because some people started pushing the propaganda as Hitler's real beliefs.  Which leads to awful bullshit.  Hitler was a terrible person who hated Jews and used that hatred to evil ends as a means of getting power.

 

People need to stop pushing Noam Chomsky arguments...

The "madness" that revolved around Christian soldiers deciding halfway across the Arabian peninsula that, rather than visiting Christian monuments, they'd murder, rape, and pillage any Muslims they came across?

 

Not to mention that Muhammad's decision to take over that area was actually welcomed, because the Sassanids and Byzantines had fucked each other in years of war and were incapable of looking after their own peoples. The Rashidun Caliphate that formed after created a massive, stable empire, arguably better than any other at the time in the world.

And, yet, you forget that was a three-way conflict that went on for a Hell of a long time.  The banner of Islam lead to many pillages during the Crusades as well.

 

And, there's a general "reason" why Islam philosophically hates the Jewish people.  Ishmael.  Look into that religious figure.  Not an excuse, but that's where it all started.


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