56 replies to this topic

[Bowsette]

I...dude...go back and re read my post. 1984 is happening.

 

I'm not gonna get into a dick swinging contest over a couple of fucking books. They both have extremely valid points. I'm just saying you can't dismiss one...

He did stipulate "in some known communist country".

 

Unless England is a communist country now, I don't know

 

Don't really care, either

[Calvary]

Pff our politics is far too luke warm piss-water to have any sort of communist element.

 

I'll give him that.

[DeadChannel]

It's where they take place that is important.  1984 isn't happening in some known communist country.  Brave New World is happening in Europe where America is the "savage land."

I'm not sure if where they take place is as important as what they predict. I mean, the important part of verne's "from the earth to the moon" is that he predicted putting human beings into space even though he also predicted a giant ass canon doing the job.

I'm going to agree with Gol and say:

They both have extremely valid points. I'm just saying you can't dismiss one...

However, Orwell gets the edge in my mind simply because of personal preference, I think it is slightly better written.
Admittedly, I'm slightly biased towards liking longer novels, so that might be it too.

[Big_Willie_Styles]

I...dude...go back and re read my post. 1984 is happening.

 

I'm not gonna get into a dick swinging contest over a couple of fucking books. They both have extremely valid points. I'm just saying you can't dismiss one...

Surveillance is one thing, but 1984 is built on more than that.  And claiming 1984 is happening already is a cliche.

 

 

I'm not sure if where they take place is as important as what they predict. I mean, the important part of verne's "from the earth to the moon" is that he predicted putting human beings into space even though he also predicted a giant ass canon doing the job.

However, Orwell gets the edge in my mind simply because of personal preference, I think it is slightly better written.
Admittedly, I'm slightly biased towards liking longer novels, so that might be it too.

Where they take place is important.  England was a first world country at the time it was written.

 

Orwell is the one that gets cited more, sure, but Brave New World is better.  The dystopia made up to appear as a utopia to everyone outside of power is really brilliant.  Because everything is awesome.

[DeadChannel]

Part of my point is that 1984 is representative of parts of the world, and Brave New World is representative of parts of the world.

You (probably) happen to live in part of the world that is more strongly represented by Huxley's novel, but there are parts of the world that are *almost exactly* the same as 1984.

Although part of it, 1984 isn't really about there descent of a first world country into totalitarianism. iirc there are a few passages where Winston tries to remember the time before the party took power, but it seems to be a warning against totalitarianism in the entire world, rather than just the first world.

Orwell warned that books would be banned, Huxley warned that people would not care enough about them for a ban to be necessary. Both of these things should be feared, because in some capacity they're both correct.

[Calvary]

I'm not sure if where they take place is as important as what they predict. I mean, the important part of verne's "from the earth to the moon" is that he predicted putting human beings into space even though he also predicted a giant ass canon doing the job.

I'm going to agree with Gol and say:
However, Orwell gets the edge in my mind simply because of personal preference, I think it is slightly better written.
Admittedly, I'm slightly biased towards liking longer novels, so that might be it too.

 

 

I'd have to agree, Orwell is one of my favourite authors because of his writing style. I've read almost everyone of his novels and a good chunk of his essays (got one for Christmas ), so I probably am a bit biased, but for good reason I hope.

[Mister Sympa]

Brave New World, for being revolutionary, was too dry for me. I never finished it. I got about 75% in and lost interest.

[Calvary]

I like how realistic the savage reservations were. BNW was realistic.

[Big_Willie_Styles]

Orwell warned that books would be banned, Huxley warned that people would not care enough about them for a ban to be necessary. Both of these things should be feared, because in some capacity they're both correct.

No, Huxley warned what would happen if we abandoned things that could cause instability and sought stability over all other virtues.

 

I find Orwell's arguments a little too simplistic.  His two most famous books are treatises against communism (Animal Farm) and fascism (1984).  But the arguments in them against the two governing philosophies aren't the best but are very quotable.

 

Huxley's Brave New World is not as quotable (to an extent, as you have to explain what Soma and feelies are to people before getting into those quotes,) but makes more powerful and less simplistic arguments against totalitarianism, which both communism and fascism as a governing philosophy eventually breed when those in power are given Hobbesian levels of absolute power over their people.

[SpleenBeGone]

This turned into a very serious conversation while I was away downloading things. >.>

[midnightblue]

I'm ashamed to say I've never read either, although both are pervasive enough in modern culture that I have a reasonable idea as to plot.  Based on that and this conversation I'd throw Ben Elton's Blind Faith into the mix in terms of being prophetic, obviously written a lot later than the either two I'd say it has closer ties to what is actually happening and seems to fall halfway between Orwell's "CCTV state" and Huxley's dystopian utopia.

[Big_Willie_Styles]

This turned into a very serious conversation while I was away downloading things. >.>

I get like that when I get a ridiculous amount of sleep and have a lot of time to burn.

I'm ashamed to say I've never read either, although both are pervasive enough in modern culture that I have a reasonable idea as to plot.  Based on that and this conversation I'd throw Ben Elton's Blind Faith into the mix in terms of being prophetic, obviously written a lot later than the either two I'd say it has closer ties to what is actually happening and seems to fall halfway between Orwell's "CCTV state" and Huxley's dystopian utopia.

A book published in 2007 can't be prophetic about life seven to eight years later.  That's not how it works.  That's called a very educated guess based on available information.

[midnightblue]

Hence why I added the "obviously written a lot later" and in terms of technology we have come on in leaps and bounds in the last 7-8 years.  For example youtube was only created 10 years ago and was barely used by the general public, facebook was in it's infancy, twitter didn't exist.  A lot of his book was to do with the mass sharing of every last piece of personal information and that is certainly happening more and more, the ability to do so barely existed when he wrote the book.

[Big_Willie_Styles]

Hence why I added the "obviously written a lot later" and in terms of technology we have come on in leaps and bounds in the last 7-8 years.  For example youtube was only created 10 years ago and was barely used by the general public, facebook was in it's infancy, twitter didn't exist.  A lot of his book was to do with the mass sharing of every last piece of personal information and that is certainly happening more and more, the ability to do so barely existed when he wrote the book.

Yes, but people can only really find it if they look really hard.

 

It's the privacy vs. freedom angle.  It's not a very original concept, is what I'm saying.

[midnightblue]

Dystopia is rarely original, certainly not any more!

 

But the reason that I originally mentioned it was due to the discussion as to whether Orwell or Huxley were more likely to be right, looking at Elton's book there are elements of both I would say, and as that book was written far more recently it's interesting what aspects from each "side" he's used.

[DeadChannel]

No, Huxley warned what would happen if we abandoned things that could cause instability and sought stability over all other virtues.

I find Orwell's arguments a little too simplistic. His two most famous books are treatises against communism (Animal Farm) and fascism (1984). But the arguments in them against the two governing philosophies aren't the best but are very quotable.

Huxley's Brave New World is not as quotable (to an extent, as you have to explain what Soma and feelies are to people before getting into those quotes,) but makes more powerful and less simplistic arguments against totalitarianism, which both communism and fascism as a governing philosophy eventually breed when those in power are given Hobbesian levels of absolute power over their people.

I'd agree with you if 1984 wasn't so predictive (again, of parts of the world that you don't live in). So is Brave New World, but again, Orwell gets the edge for the technical aspects of his writing.

Oh, and sorry for taking so long. Admittedly, I forgot about this debate.

[Big_Willie_Styles]

I'd agree with you if 1984 wasn't so predictive (again, of parts of the world that you don't live in). So is Brave New World, but again, Orwell gets the edge for the technical aspects of his writing.

Oh, and sorry for taking so long. Admittedly, I forgot about this debate.

Brave New World built a far more interesting world.  1984 just straight up banned sex.  Orwell probably should have thought about that a little harder before including it.

 

http://en.wikipedia....Brave_New_World

 

(That's what the star next to a fresh topic is for.  It's my guiding principle on this forum.)

[SushiKitten]

I'm going to recommend One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish. The ending had me on edge!

[SpleenBeGone]

I'm going to recommend One Fish, Two Fish, Red Fish, Blue Fish. The ending had me on edge!

What was it?

I need to know!

[ageekygirllikeme]

If you like fantasy I would recommend the Inheritance Cycle series, if you haven't read those yet of course. They're some of my favorite books. I would also recommend a book called The Sight by David Clement-Davies.