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The tree and the seed-which came first?


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#1 NervousNerd

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:43 PM

Again something else i was thinking about today.
Scientists reckon the planet was pretty much a molten rock when it was first made.
If that`s the case where did the seeds come from for trees and other plants to flourish?
You can`t have a tree/plant without a seed,or there`d be no point in the tree/plant seeding.
The planet would`ve been to hot for the seed or anything to have existed,even bacteria.

Thoughts?

#2 SpleenBeGone

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:58 PM

Algae came first, plants without seeds.

Like the chicken and the egg thing, simple answer. Dinosaurs had eggs before they turned into birds.
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#3 SushiKitten

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

Life came long after the world was molten rock and stuff. Like, millions of years.

Imagine something like this: There's one cell floating around in the sea, it duplicates and all the different cells evolved into many different things depending on where they are through the process of natural selection, including sea plants like coral and stuff.

So you get to coral and sea plants and algae, and suddenly maybe a few of these organisms meet land. And over hundreds of years, some of these sea plants end up being able to grab a hold of the soil on land and starts creeping up on land. Eventually. It's a long process, but it results in all the diversity of trees and flowers you see today. Every living thing most probably came from the same ancestor, that cell in the sea. It's why you share a good chunk of your DNA with a banana.

Seeds are probably something developed when the plants made it to land, so technically, I guess the plant came first.

#4 NervousNerd

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:06 PM

How can we know this know? We wasn`t around millions of years ago to see all this happen, so where`s the definitive proof?

#5 SushiKitten

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

There's a lot of clues that lead us to this conclusion.

Natural selection is all around us. If you had a giraffe with a longer neck and a giraffe with a shorter neck. The one with a longer neck can eat more leaves, has a better chance of survival, and therefore will probably have a baby giraffe with another giraffe which has a greater chance of also having a longer neck.

Now take that analogy and think about plants. The plant most successful at grabbing the roots and getting sunlight without water filtering it will be the one most likely to survive. All it is is genetic mutations that just happen to give the organism a better chance at survival and a better chance of spreading offspring.

#6 tlh1123

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

Questions like these always get me aggravated. Not yours in particular just all of them hahaha :)

I'm always like, "Well, personally I could care less. We're here and that's all that matters."

Good questions these are, but everyone has an opinion which makes it probably impossible to come up with one solid answer. :P
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#7 Matty_poo

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:38 PM

Questions like these always get me aggravated. Not yours in particular just all of them hahaha :)

I'm always like, "Well, personally I could care less. We're here and that's all that matters."

Good questions these are, but everyone has an opinion which makes it probably impossible to come up with one solid answer. :P


gotta disagree, I love questions, and then finding the answers to those. Fun fact, a current theory is that the first organism on the planet arrived upon a meteorite that impacted with the earth

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#8 Affray

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:40 PM

gotta disagree, I love questions, and then finding the answers to those. Fun fact, a current theory is that the first organism on the planet arrived upon a meteorite that impacted with the earth


I heard that one as well.
There are bacteria on Earth that can exist in very extreme environments, both temperature and pressure related.
So it is an entirely possible theory.

It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#9 Matty_poo

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:45 PM

I heard that one as well.
There are bacteria on Earth that can exist in very extreme environments, both temperature and pressure related.
So it is an entirely possible theory.


Just don't tell tom cruise, last thing we need to do is get that lil guy excited

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#10 Calvary

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:54 AM

Extremophiles can survive in conditions such as hydro-sulphide solutions and in complete and utter darkness with 0% ability to produce chlorophyll. It's really quite amazing and it's true but unlikely that extremophiles came about first.

The thing is, life isn't that hard to really come about, theoretically at least. We don't know the exact way that complex DNA forms from amino acids and proteins but there is certainly potential for life to form from pre-biotic conditions given a little nudge with electricity, for instance a lightning blast.

Life didn't just suddenly appear and it's probably unlikely that one single cell was the ancestor of all life on Earth given the sheer size of our planet and the number of barriers to bacterial conquest that geology would have presented. In fact, life might have actually started a number of times. The Hadean Era may have provided conditions for life to begin, before being quashed by the unpredictability of the environment. Life probably took hold and actually built itself a foothold in the Archean Eon in the form of stromatolites which provided resources for more complex life forms to evolve due to their waste product being oxygen.

Plants with seeds probably evolved well after the Archean Eon, sometime around the Mesoproterozoic.

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#11 DaRatmastah

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:30 AM

Interestingly enough, scientists were examining the oldest rock known to man recently(it's really not much more than a grain of sand), and by examining the crystalization process of its layers, they've concluded there might have been standing water on this planet much earlier than they initially thought. This leads to several interesting new possiblities, including life being much older than previously expected, or possibly our earth beating the mathematical lottery multiple times and generation life from inert compounds multiple times in its history.

Of course, standing water existing is not evidence of life, but it's evidence that life had a place to exist without even needing to be an extremophile, and also broadens the timespan in which we could expect life to be capable of forming, both of which are very exciting!

#12 SIlhouette

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:59 PM

The amount of quantum states a fixed amount of space such as a human body can occupy is 10^10^68 (ish) the size of the the universe is only (10^23)^3 which is a much smaller number then the number of quantum states, so to find out mathmatically the chances of you being in the universe you divide by the first number, to find out the chances of life you find out how many livable life quantum states you can have and divide by the first number. You then slot the number back into the size of the universe to determine the chance of it being in our universe.

The odds aren't that bad but they are in no way 0, and this formula is for any instantanious point in time, to factor from the birth of the universe we would need to plot the universe as an exponential (since it expands) and time as a straight line. when U^e reaches above (10^23)^3 then it is basically a chance of 1 over 1 that life will exist in that exact instance but since time is also a factor there is the very real chance of life being created before that instance and its just like on your first game of poker winning with a royal flush. Its not even remotely likely but quantum physics shows it is above 0 which means it is possible. As it happens, we are alive and the odds were with us.

Back to natural selection, it is not likely that we "crawled out of the ocean" what likely happened is that some cell got stuck on the beach and as it turned out could survive when the tide went out and came back in, it found compatible life that could do the same and became something like seaweed. After millions of years the seaweed ran out of water but didnt die and so became grass and so on. Of course it isn't likely that we evolved from grass or seaweed, we likely evolved from cells with symbiotic relationships that got caught in the same situation and so we started living half in and half out of the water over a course of a couple million years. Eventually we didn't need the water and started living on land, our symbiotic relationship likely became a new lifeform and we could now be called a complex cellular species.

@ the person who asks for proof...

There is a lot of proof to backup this theory, but a theory is a theory and as soon as something better explains how we were created then this theory stands. This is how science has always worked, we create a model and then when that model breaks we either try to fix or better it, or we scrap the model and make a new one. This is why we had classical theory, theory of relativity, quantum physics, string theory...

Science isn't "how the universe works", It is "how to explain our reality" for us to understand it with the highest chances of being able to predict an outcome from a set of variables. It is basically so i can create a theory that will get my spaceship into outer space, who cares if the model is incorrect as long as it gets my spaceship in orbit.

#13 Demvamko

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:46 AM

Well silhouette explained a lot. We can never know for sure. So far science only got theories that are based on pure logic and all of them make sense. There are many theories that i dont agree with but life itself is easy to start. It can start from simple passive organism that does nothing but collecting organic stuff and in the end it can be organism composed from bilions of cells that work in special way.

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#14 Coconut Man

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Posted 11 March 2013 - 07:48 AM

Neither. Chuck Norris did.


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#15 emilydc

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:40 PM

This is why I believe in creation. Evloution does not make sense to me, I can understand that they believe in the "big bang theory" to a point, but only because two things smashing into eachother shatters or breaks into smaller pices but this doesn't explain how we are here or animals or trees or any living thing. We are all unique and Scientists know this but refuse to acklowedge the fact that each animal and person has a unique DNA that never changes and its not possible to take away from. God made us, he is everywhere its entirly clear that he made us special and gave us intelligents to create and to think and to have theories and to make a soultion. I believe this wholeheartedly. We might never find a answer for everything here, but when his plan is revealed it will make sense. And until that day, I do not worry. He is watching out for us ;)

#16 lord of the lols

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:57 PM

Evloution does not make sense to me, I can understand that they believe in the "big bang theory" to a point, but only because two things smashing into eachother shatters or breaks into smaller pices but this doesn't explain how we are here or animals or trees or any living thing.

I do not believe this is the current theory of the Big Bang. I am sorry, but you should do more research on this topic, so you can understand.

We are all unique and Scientists know this but refuse to acklowedge the fact that each animal and person has a unique DNA that never changes and its not possible to take away from.

I respect what you say about religion, but this is an inaccurate statement; scientists have made bunnies glow under in the dark by changing their genetic code. http://www.cbsnews.c...5_162-57598551/

"4) The gene may be modified slightly to work in a more desirable way once inside the recipient organism." also appears in the explanation of how genetic engineering in the following article: http://agbiosafety.u..._genetics.shtml

 

Thank you for taking the time to expand your knowledge of the universe.


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#17 Affray

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 07:31 AM

I forgot this thread existed.

 

 

This is why I believe in creation. Evloution does not make sense to me, I can understand that they believe in the "big bang theory" to a point, but only because two things smashing into eachother shatters or breaks into smaller pices but this doesn't explain how we are here or animals or trees or any living thing. We are all unique and Scientists know this but refuse to acklowedge the fact that each animal and person has a unique DNA that never changes and its not possible to take away from. God made us, he is everywhere its entirly clear that he made us special and gave us intelligents to create and to think and to have theories and to make a soultion. I believe this wholeheartedly. We might never find a answer for everything here, but when his plan is revealed it will make sense. And until that day, I do not worry. He is watching out for us ;)

I mean no harm by what I am about to say, it is a constructive criticism.

 

You absolutely need to be educated in a subject before you are allowed to have an opinion about it that can be taken seriously.

I make damn sure that I read religious texts and expand my knowledge of all things faith related so that I can have as much perspective on the subject as possible.

Here is a little brain bomb for you to mull over.

If everyone on Earth suddenly forgot everything that had ever been said or thought about every religion ever, and all religious texts disappeared, every trace of any religion ever simply gone overnight, would any of them re-appear by will of God?

 

Now let's replace religion with science.

All scientific knowledge disappears, all documentation gone, we start from a blank slate.

Will science just never exist again because we all stopped talking about it?

I think not.

With this blank level of practical working knowledge of the world, we would most likely get more religion actually.

 

That is the best thing about all things truthful.

They are going to be there whether you believe they are or not.

The only thing stopping all religion from disappearing is the people who continue to push it's validity on faith alone.

Science will never go away, for it is tangible measurable substance.


It is perfectly acceptable to fear and admire a being you could not possibly understand.


#18 emilydc

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:12 PM

I forgot this thread existed.
 
 

I mean no harm by what I am about to say, it is a constructive criticism.
 
You absolutely need to be educated in a subject before you are allowed to have an opinion about it that can be taken seriously.
I make damn sure that I read religious texts and expand my knowledge of all things faith related so that I can have as much perspective on the subject as possible.
Here is a little brain bomb for you to mull over.
If everyone on Earth suddenly forgot everything that had ever been said or thought about every religion ever, and all religious texts disappeared, every trace of any religion ever simply gone overnight, would any of them re-appear by will of God?
 
Now let's replace religion with science.
All scientific knowledge disappears, all documentation gone, we start from a blank slate.
Will science just never exist again because we all stopped talking about it?
I think not.
With this blank level of practical working knowledge of the world, we would most likely get more religion actually.
 
That is the best thing about all things truthful.
They are going to be there whether you believe they are or not.
The only thing stopping all religion from disappearing is the people who continue to push it's validity on faith alone.
Science will never go away, for it is tangible measurable substance.



I agree with what you said, I don't have a proper education about this subject. However, I am intitled to an opinion in anything, though I can't say that I'm completely correct all the time but people believe what people believe.
When it comes to the point of not remembering of religions or science, Gods evidence of reality is nature. Who gave us the knowledge to understand and learn about things we thought could never be known, we thought were IMPOSSIBLE. Even if we did forget what we know and believe, there is evidence of Him. Of jesus christ, can you imagine going on a cross and dying for someone you loved? Would you have done that? I am not trying to shove this up into anybodies throat. I do honor what you say, I'm not just shoving this away, I want to listen. It does not make me change, but I do want to listen. Also, if science never goes away...but we forget, and I forget religon, does that make nature and all within it go away? Something to think I about...

#19 emilydc

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:14 PM

I agree with what you said, I don't have a proper education about this subject. However, I am intitled to an opinion in anything, though I can't say that I'm completely correct all the time but people believe what people believe.
When it comes to the point of not remembering of religions or science, Gods evidence of reality is nature. Who gave us the knowledge to understand and learn about things we thought could never be known, we thought were IMPOSSIBLE. Even if we did forget what we know and believe, there is evidence of Him. Of jesus christ, can you imagine going on a cross and dying for someone you loved? Would you have done that? I am not trying to shove this up into anybodies throat. I do honor what you say, I'm not just shoving this away, I want to listen. It does not make me change, but I do want to listen. Also, if science never goes away...but we forget, and I forget religon, does that make nature and all within it go away? Something to think I about...


Also, if by Gods will. He will show us again, how much he loves us. And he does for me, everyday.

#20 emilydc

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:20 PM

I do not believe this is the current theory of the Big Bang. I am sorry, but you should do more research on this topic, so you can understand.

I respect what you say about religion, but this is an inaccurate statement; scientists have made bunnies glow under in the dark by changing their genetic code. http://www.cbsnews.c...5_162-57598551/
"4) The gene may be modified slightly to work in a more desirable way once inside the recipient organism." also appears in the explanation of how genetic engineering in the following article: http://agbiosafety.u..._genetics.shtml
 
Thank you for taking the time to expand your knowledge of the universe.


Forgive me, I am incorrect on some statements. True, I don't follow the currents of the science world completely, though I do have a great love of it:) also if you are interested, I think that you may enjoy this site.http://www.answersin...rs/ken-ham/bio/