Yii is a PHP framework that will build the CRUD operations for you. I know some top notch engineers using it.
http://www.yiiframework.com/tour/
IMO:
In today's development world, the one who can quickly develop secure and working applications that meet requirements with minimal cost will usually get the buy in from those paying the bills. Keep that in mind when you tackle a project, good product integration will usually create something faster and more robust than a homemade from scratch application.
No reason to spend time and money reinventing the wheel unless you need a wheel that doesn't exist.
Training tracking program I want to build for work
Started by SpleenBeGone, Jan 29 2013 09:21 AM
34 replies to this topic
#21
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#22
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:48 AM
Using a framework before you're familiar with a language is a good way to paint yourself into a lot of corners and write extremely inefficient code.
#23
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:09 AM
Could you give me an example?
I did some looking around to see how the rest of the internet feels about my view on frameworks. It seems to be a subjective topic, as with most IT solutions.
http://www.phparch.c...s-the-question/
http://programmers.s...use-a-framework
http://stackoverflow...web-development
I did some looking around to see how the rest of the internet feels about my view on frameworks. It seems to be a subjective topic, as with most IT solutions.
http://www.phparch.c...s-the-question/
http://programmers.s...use-a-framework
http://stackoverflow...web-development
#24
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:48 AM
Search through the jquery tag on S/O, I'm sure you can find a few questions where someone can't figure out why their ajax requests don't work half the time.
For example,
I've seen people design workflows around flawed logic like this and waste a lot of time by having to go back to the drawing board to fix this kind of stuff.
As a developer if you don't understand to some degree how the library works internally you shouldn't be using it. I'm not saying you need to know the 100% ins and outs of the library to use it, but if you're getting a mysterious error and can't go through the source and figure out what's going on you're fucked.
For example,
var retData;
$.ajax({
url: 'google.com',
success: function(d){
retData = d.key
}
});
alert(retData);
So, if you don't know how ajax requests are handled, you'd assume that it would alert whatever d.key was. This is obviously not the case because ajax is asynchronous, but by using jQuery that fact is transparent. (compared to no-library where you actually have to use an event and it becomes apparent that the flow is broken)I've seen people design workflows around flawed logic like this and waste a lot of time by having to go back to the drawing board to fix this kind of stuff.
As a developer if you don't understand to some degree how the library works internally you shouldn't be using it. I'm not saying you need to know the 100% ins and outs of the library to use it, but if you're getting a mysterious error and can't go through the source and figure out what's going on you're fucked.
#25
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 12:48 PM
I don't think I fully agree with your javascript issue. The idea behind a lot of these frameworks is to allow the development of a Rich UI with compatible back end code without the need for getting into the nuts and bolts async javascript. Sure you may run into framework bugs, but that is the price one pays for rapid development. If the scope of the application is quite large, the payoff is usually weighted towards the use of an established paradigm.
I do agree that you can find yourself troubleshooting someone else's code when using 3rd party libs and frameworks. I spent a bit of time myself troubleshooting php script that was exceeding the max allowed size. the issue was with an Elastic Search API that was actually re-creating a new instance of the JSON string i was passing it (rather than using a reference), thus doubling my memory consumption.
However, the trade off was that I could almost immediately create json queries and filters that worked with the service, and had working prototype within days. Rather than wasting a day mucking with the format of the request. Once it was all working, the re-factoring was minimal to avoid popping the script size limit.
Do what you will. In my specific situation, the GOTS/COTS products we use are not always in my control, as the customer has sometimes already dictated the software stack. Sometimes it takes a while to convince them of a poor choice... other times it doesn't matter and you have to use their pre-compiled libs to be compatible with an existing infrastructure.
Again, unless you're writing something that doesn't exist, Re-usable code is the way to go. Learn the 'ins-and-outs' of a primitive framework if you want... just be ready to end up with a product that looks years behind the other guy's.
I do agree that you can find yourself troubleshooting someone else's code when using 3rd party libs and frameworks. I spent a bit of time myself troubleshooting php script that was exceeding the max allowed size. the issue was with an Elastic Search API that was actually re-creating a new instance of the JSON string i was passing it (rather than using a reference), thus doubling my memory consumption.
However, the trade off was that I could almost immediately create json queries and filters that worked with the service, and had working prototype within days. Rather than wasting a day mucking with the format of the request. Once it was all working, the re-factoring was minimal to avoid popping the script size limit.
Do what you will. In my specific situation, the GOTS/COTS products we use are not always in my control, as the customer has sometimes already dictated the software stack. Sometimes it takes a while to convince them of a poor choice... other times it doesn't matter and you have to use their pre-compiled libs to be compatible with an existing infrastructure.
Again, unless you're writing something that doesn't exist, Re-usable code is the way to go. Learn the 'ins-and-outs' of a primitive framework if you want... just be ready to end up with a product that looks years behind the other guy's.
#26
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:02 PM
I'm not nay-saying frameworks, I'm nay-saying using frameworks when you aren't experienced with the language to begin with.
I'm not saying you need to write everything yourself, I'm saying if you don't understand how the language works then you are going to shoot yourself in the foot if you learn it while using a framework.
I don't understand how you disagree with the javascript issue - if the person was using pure JS to accomplish the same task they'd inherently understand that it isn't a functional line by line completion, but something that happens at a later time. Pretty sure that illustrates my point 100%.
I'm not talking about going through a lib to find a bug (they shouldn't be there, that's the advantage of a lib - it should already be thoroughly tested), I'm talking about going beyond its documented limitations, manipulating it to your specific case, etc.
I'm not saying you need to write everything yourself, I'm saying if you don't understand how the language works then you are going to shoot yourself in the foot if you learn it while using a framework.
I don't understand how you disagree with the javascript issue - if the person was using pure JS to accomplish the same task they'd inherently understand that it isn't a functional line by line completion, but something that happens at a later time. Pretty sure that illustrates my point 100%.
I'm not talking about going through a lib to find a bug (they shouldn't be there, that's the advantage of a lib - it should already be thoroughly tested), I'm talking about going beyond its documented limitations, manipulating it to your specific case, etc.
#27
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:11 PM
I feel as though I have been pushed to learn more about the language because i use the frameworks. As you said, they often mask complicated operations. Sometime when reading through the documentation or code, i discover all kinds of pre-written methods/functions that may or may not work, but do some pretty neat things that I would not have considered on my own.
But yes, if you don't know anything about the language syntax to begin with, then a framework is going to feel unwieldy.
But yes, if you don't know anything about the language syntax to begin with, then a framework is going to feel unwieldy.
#28
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Posted 05 February 2013 - 04:08 PM
Suggesting frameworks before learning a language.
Sure does feel Microsoft in here.
Sure does feel Microsoft in here.
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
#29
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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:09 AM
Suggesting frameworks before learning a language.
Sure does feel Microsoft in here.
Why are you referencing Microsoft's corporate marketing techniques? Because I recommended an MVC framework for PHP?
Either way, good luck with your training tracking program spleen.
#30
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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:15 AM
I believe he was referencing Visual Studio.
#31
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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:11 PM
Because you recommended a framework to someone who doesn't yet understand the core language.Why are you referencing Microsoft's corporate marketing techniques? Because I recommended an MVC framework for PHP?
Either way, good luck with your training tracking program spleen.
Which is what Microsoft does, and is why we have thousands of app-shop developers that churn out mass produced, poorly designed code.
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
#32
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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:55 AM
Because you recommended a framework to someone who doesn't yet understand the core language.
Which is what Microsoft does, and is why we have thousands of app-shop developers that churn out mass produced, poorly designed code.
Interesting view. I was under the impression that Android and Apple were dominating the app scene. I guess the Windows smart phones are popular in your area.
#33
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Posted 07 February 2013 - 08:43 AM
Not only on the phones, they are using Visual Studio to push people to make Win8 apps as well.
#34
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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:20 AM
Maybe the interwebs should have a quiz to determine how well you "know" a programming language before you can download any Frameworks or SDKs. That way we wont have so many poorly designed windows 8 apps.
#35
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Posted 09 February 2013 - 11:38 AM
App-shop developer is a term that refers to programmers that learn enough of a language to produce a program that works and don't bother with anything else.Interesting view. I was under the impression that Android and Apple were dominating the app scene. I guess the Windows smart phones are popular in your area.
Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
